It sparks

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Re: It sparks

Postby minetymenace » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:55 am

:laugh
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Re: It sparks

Postby Ian Hingley » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:09 am

Ian Hingley wrote:You seem to slipped in a picture of your crack cocaine den at the end!


Correction - my son tells me I meant heroin <033

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:06 pm

Hmmmmm...
Ian Hingley wrote:I meant hero

ore
Ian Hingley wrote:coca

my drug is this stuff:
DSCN1397.jpg
hope it serves me for a wile...


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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:11 pm

hi all, - hi minety.
as it was not serving me for long, I am on to build a next one wich should survive a breackdown on a mainswitch as well.
for this reason I am surching a smal Relay, - a Printrelay as we are calling them wit some especial electrical characteristics.
1. it needs to be able to switch abouth 1 Ampère by 12 Volt
2.Coil: 14.5 Volt max
3.Coil must release at 3.5 Volt
4. Coil must set by 6 Volt ore lower


I think I have found one: Tycon, P1 V23026 it is a 5 Volt latching, 2 coil Relay
the problem is, I can not find out what " latching " means.
what means Mister Minety to this Relay to use it as a savety device to detect a low onboard Voltage :?: :?:

Relay code : V23026B1101B201
Tyco part numbre:: 3-1393774-4

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Re: It sparks

Postby Ian Hingley » Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:28 pm

hi beat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay#Latching_relay

Seems it keeps it present state when the power is turned off rather then resetting to its original state.

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Re: It sparks

Postby minetymenace » Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:56 pm

Yes, Ian has it, normaly a pulse on the coil sets the realy, and another switches it off....

Think you will struggle with those criteria. For you pull in/drop out see here but you might overvolt the coil (maybe a small voltage regulator on the could is the answer), the 12v coil version fails your pull in/drop out limits.

I don't understand quite what you are trying to do here beat, maybe a relay is not the answer, or try this.
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:31 pm

DSCN1359.jpg
the last Version of the Transistore Switch that was brocken by the drop in the onboard Voltage.


so , what I wantd is using a Relay in the line 12V+ coming from the points.
the Relays contact should close / open this line .
the Relays Coil should work by switching ON the Ignition Switch and should go of by turning the Switch OFF.
BUT : as a coil needs a " hold on " Voltage, - when 12 V is on but droping lower then 4 Volts, it should also going OFF.

Hmmmm,
as my son says, it will be very difficult to find such a relay, ( most of them have a " must release Voltage " by 10 % of the rated Voltage, - wich is to low ) he forces to take a Relay with two ON / OFF contacts,
using one to start the relay and the other to "hold " it, having a resistore in line.
so I could double ( ore more ) the " must release " Voltage to the level of 4 Volts abouth.
the Relay must be smal, 10 MM by 10MM by 12 MM ore so,because not much space in the box.
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:57 pm

hi gentlemans,
as this is my Transistore Switch Ignition with Holder, it needs a repair because the Transistore itself is brocken down caused by a low voltage at the onboard elecrikkery. ( faulty Mainswitch ) :cry:
DSCN1620.jpg
selfmade - blue / black - Box transistore switch

first I had to digging out all the electronic parts by the Proxxon / Dremel thing.... <216 ( Araldite can be hard stuff :!: )
DSCN1683.jpg
lot of work to clean ( clear ) the box.

now, this is the plan ( layout) for the next version of Transistore Switch:
transign3gen.jpg
plan complished

maynly in there are three things: a relais, a " Festpannungsregler " and a Transistor.
additional two Resistores, one Zenerdiode, one LED and three more Diodes as well.
will come up later to explain what the parts should doing....
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:27 pm

hi all,
try to explain what this Ignition Switch should do:

to understand what the Relai and the Voltage Regulator have to do, - first we have a look on to the T1 Transistore, the MJ10012

the line C-E is the one the Coil is in, this means, E gos to ground and C is coming from the primary windings of the Ign. Coil.
this line is limited for 450 Volts max and 10 Amps max.
NO limit for minimum Values.

the line B-E is the smal current / Voltage that is making the C-E line ON / OFF.
in the case of using a ordenary coil wich consumes around 3.5 Amps by 12 Volt,
this B inlet is limited to :
around 0.35 Amps and minimum 3 Volts to switch C-E fully.
if not reaching one of this values, the line C-E will have a to high resistance and will overheat after a vew seconds.
in maximum this B inlet can cop with 8 Volts and 2 Amps, - any higher will damidge the Transi on this B-E line

so, all the other devices in this box are here to protect ore reach this important values.


so the relay:
it has to work as a LOW VOLTAGE CUT OF DEVICE.
this means, the relays coil should release the two switches inside by a onboard Voltage of 4 to 6 Volts.
working as a savety protection for the minimum of this 3 Volts the T1 is needing.

and it works like this ( hopefully :oops: )
when ignition is switched on , a voltage of 9 - 12 ( up to 18 ) Volts is coming to pin 4, it is going straight to pin 3 and to the relays coil. so the relay is switching ON.
by switching ON, it releases pin 3 and jumps over to pin 5, meaning, the direct line to the relays coin is interrupted and the bypasway from pin 5 via the Resistore is in use to feed the relays coil.
maybe it needs a smal capacitore to not have the relay flikkering by this process, - I will se it in the tests.
anyway, the Resistore making a much lower voltage on pin 1 ( the relays coil has a Resistance of 1000 Ohms, R1 a other 1000 Ohms, so half the 12 volts are reaching the coil. )
now, as the relay is market with a " must release Voltage " of 10% of the nominal Value ( 12 V ) on its Datasheet, this 1.2 Volts are to low to work as a CUT OFF DEVICE for the minimum of the 3 Volts the Transi needs .
so the sens of all is to divide the " holding " Voltage for the relay by abouth 50 ore 60 % ( depending on the two Resistances of the relay coil and R1) to reach the 1.2 Volts on the pin 1, so by onboard Voltage drop down to say 5 Volts, on pin 1 will reach only 1.2 Volts wich is the " must release Voltage " for the Relay.

after release, the Relay must switch on agayn when voltage has reached 75 % of the nominal Value, this is 9 Volts.

the second switch inside the relay will give the onboard Voltage ( minimum 5 Volt, max 18 Volts ) over to the positive voltage regulator l7808 cv, - this is regulating the max demand of the Transi wich is 8 Volt.
the Diode D2 is droping this 8.3 Volts ( in reality ) a bit to savely 7.8 Volts, those are sendet to the points and coming back timed to switch the C-E line on the Transi T1.

the the Resistore near the B Inlet of the T1 and the LED are making a Pull Down to Ground for save switching and showing exactly when points are closed ore open.

so, this is the plan so far, the next days will show me is it working ore not.... <216

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Re: It sparks

Postby skippy » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:58 pm

You know we will be waiting.
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:09 pm

hi all,

tested the Relay today, find out as the thing is flikkering.
then I checked what Voltage it needs to operate and by wich Voltage it dos release :

8.8 Volts it operates, - and by 3.7 Volts it releases.
have checked it some docent times, - they seamed to be stable values : 8.8V = ON / 3.7 V = OFF

the 3.7 Volts are just what I am looking for to release, the 8.8 Volts are a bit high to do the first operating.
but as a batteri is usualy giving out a voltage near the 12 V by the first cuple of secondes evan if the condition of it is bad, -it could work so far.

hope to made some more testings tomorrow,

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:38 pm

well, I was not happy with this last layout.
still needet a additional Resistore to devide the voltage from 8 Volts to lower 1.5 Volts for the Transistore on inlet B.
so still NO low onboard Voltage savety.

but as I do surch for a " low Voltage save " Device this time, there is a next Version on the way..... <216
beat

hi minety,
Fred was checking voltages by the tongue, - moron me needing a Osziloscope for it.... :oops:

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:26 pm

g'day gents.

no, no I was not lazy, no.
have tryed several layouts for my Ignition Switch as to see:
Bild 2.jpg
savety cutoff voltage to low, voltage on B transistore to unsave
Bild 2.jpg (20.65 KiB) Viewed 2105 times

Bild 3.jpg
savety cutoff with 2 Zener Diodes to unexactly, to unsave
Bild 3.jpg (23.52 KiB) Viewed 2105 times

Bild 4.jpg
savety cutoff is nearby ok but voltage on B transistore not satisfaying.
Bild 4.jpg (25.31 KiB) Viewed 2105 times

and all need seted up on the breadbord and tested <216


and now, IT LOOKS VERY GOOD :

TrIgSw8.11.jpg


Bild 6.jpg
Partlist



and the Legend of the Parts: ( to paint the Black Box in blue :mrgreen: )


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Last edited by beat on Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:35 pm

and the practical made of it:
DSCN1969.jpg
still a mess on the table....

DSCN1970.jpg
just a vew Parts, - it looks so simple...


the thing needs some more hour of testrun it and maybe some minor changes in values of C1 and R4.
a bit later I will come up with a explanation how the details realy works.

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Re: It sparks

Postby Ian Hingley » Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:43 pm

:thumb

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Re: It sparks

Postby minetymenace » Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:45 pm

beat, looking at your circuit, there is nothing to limit the current into the capacitor C1. Remember current is proportional to dv/dt, so theroetical infinite charge current...I wonder what will burn out first, cap, relay contact or fuse?
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:24 pm

minetymenace wrote: there is nothing to limit the current into the capacitor C1

a resistore bevore the C 1 ??

C1 gets loadet up to the value of 7.5 Volts when the relays coil is activating = Ignition Switch is set to ON
for the little short moment of switching over the contact, it needs the energy from C1 to hold the coil in action.
once the contact is over on pin 10, C1 gets a voltage 2 x 1.1 volts lower than the onboard voltage.( for a example: 12 V minus 2.2V = 9.8 V )
this is already all C1 has to do, - just by tourning the Mainswitch ON, it has to work for a fraction of a second.

I have tryed it witouth the Capacitor: the Relay just flikkers, it sounds like a buzzer :lol:

I cant see the demand of current limiting in there... :roll:

at the moment I work on a fast pulldown of the 5 Volts arriving on B of the Transistor.
not shure the LED is the thing wich is doing it for this job....
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Re: It sparks

Postby minetymenace » Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:17 pm

beat wrote:I cant see the demand of current limiting in there


I = C x dV/dt

at switch on, the capacitor voltage goes from nothing to +ve rail in an instant.

Therefore dV/dt is huge (theorecticaly infinate), so the current into the capacitor will be huge.

If you have a current probe for your 'scope, you will see a massive spike, who's peak will exceed the max current of the capacitor and the relay, but as the i²t I doubt will be bug enough to blow the fuse. It will be fast, and may exceed the capability of you current probe, but it will be there.

You may destroy C1 if you don't restrict the current. The resistance of the fuse added to the contact resistance of the relay may be sufficient to limit the current, but I would check if you are after reliability.
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:31 pm

Hmmmm,
any advice of this R estriction ??

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Re: It sparks

Postby skippy » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:06 am

Adding resistance creats a timing CCT to hold the relay closed a common thing in the old telephone exchanges.
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:46 pm

Hmmmm, <201

adding a resistore of let say 1000 Ohm in the line of the Capacitor will filling it slower ( no " Short " of cause ) but will also making it slower giving the energie out.
a Diode in parallel to the Resistore would solve a part of this problem in eigther direction but cut down the incoming Voltage by at least 0.4 Volts, I know.

but I guess I will first find out what is the real demand of the size of this C1, - the 100uF I took just because I have had one like this at hand.
it may work with something much smaler, so the " Short " will be smaler as well :grin:
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Re: It sparks

Postby minetymenace » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:31 pm

if you put a resistor on the output of the relay (pin1) it would not be in the discharge path (if I understand the circuit correctly)
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:09 pm

minetymenace wrote:if you put a resistor on the output of the relay (pin1) it would not be in the discharge path

you are right minety, it would not be in the discharching path, - but - will this not produce a voltage divider together with the coil of the relay ??
so the relay will becom a lower voltage, this will shown up as it needs a higher voltage to get it operating.
now it operates at 7.5 Volts, - just a very good value I say.
shure it dependes on the value of this resistore, if he is very low, it will not change much.

in the meantime I was testing out some different values for capacitor C1.
the results:
1 uF in place = buzzing, not operating
4.7 uF in place = 1 second buzzing minimum, occasualy operating
22 uF in place = short buzzing, always operating
44 uF in place = allways properly operating
100 uF in place = properly operating.

so out of this list I guess it will be fine to fit a 47 uF Capacitor.
in the Tech Data of this Cap they say something of a 0.14 Ohm resistore to fit.
so I will order this two, but 0.14 Ohm is something like nothing, I can not imaging as this will be a big difference to a " Short ".

abouth this " Short " : on my mesuring instrument I can not see any remarcable piks of Amps when switching ON.
and as this ON moment is switcht by the strong ignition mainswitch, it could only be as the fuse coult burn.
minetymenace wrote:if I understand the circuit correctly

I guess you do it better then me :oops:

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:03 pm

hi gents,

unlucky me, I do have a seriousely breack down on my home brewed ignition test bench.
DSCN1972.jpg
drive motor for the points

this motor is stil running, - but it serves me with a nasty SHOCK when I do touching it :!:
DSCN1973.jpg
not the newest hightech model....

it seams to me as it is by far older than myself ( and this means something :oops: ) cotton isolated wires, etc, I guess it is time to invest in something new... :(
hope I can find a next sewing machine by a good price to digging out something like...
ore any suggestions ?

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Re: It sparks

Postby Ian Hingley » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:21 pm

You could maybe try a 500cc single cylinder internal combustion engine from the early 70s. That should be able to simulate your points open and closing ... :thumb

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:39 pm

Ian Hingley wrote:a 500cc single cylinder internal combustion engine from the early 70s

fantastic idea <214 <214
but by far to modern solution....
Ian Hingley wrote:That should be able to simulate your points open and closing

not shure on that, so I opened this black old monster to see inside what happend. ( could not find anything suitable to replace it for the short )
I cleaned all out from the dust of the last seventy years.
find a stone made ( cliff, schist ) Isolating plate in the feet- regulator with the year, date, market in: 1943.
after cleaning all out nicely and replacing some cables, the unit was frendly to me agayn and stopped awayking me on the ugly way.... :!:
so it will go back in place and hopefully serving my great simulating machine fore some more luck bringing experiments.... :mrgreen: <115

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Re: It sparks

Postby skippy » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:21 pm

Well done never give up. :thumb
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:59 pm

no, I did not giving up.

so by longer running of the above layout it was showing agayn a weak point:
the 5 Volt I was feeding to the points was not coming back real stable from the points to the transistor. :(
up to 1.5 volts are missing, getting lost by the dirt it creates on the points contacts.

so it cames once ( in reality 3 times :oops: more ) to something other:
TIS3GLay231114.jpg
the " egg " of columbus ( ore the one of Fred Flintstone ? )

TIS3G231114.jpg
and the opened box of the panthera ...


next tricky thing willbe to bring everithing on to this smal finned aluplate.
DSCN1976.jpg
the cooling plate with the Transistore .

DSCN1975.jpg
on this plate have all the listed parts to find a place...

DSCN1974.jpg
16 parts working together on the bread board .

this time I will not fit the parts down inside a casing, no, I will fitt them on a flat surface and will cover them with a housing as to see on the first pici.

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:05 pm

so now I try to explayn what is going on :

by the Fuse F 1.5 Amps the nominaly 12 Volts coming to the unit.
this onboard voltage can variate from 25 to 0 volts, up and down witouth a danger for the unit.

this incoming voltage needs to be at least 7.6 volts to get the unit started.

once the unit started, bike onboard voltage dropes lower then 5.9 volts, the Relay switches the unit OFF to protect the Transistore T1 from overheating because the BASIS B would not get enough mAmps ( 350 mA are recommendet ) to drive the 4 Amps the coil is needing on Transistore line Collector C to Emmiter E.

and it gos like this : power comes to pin 4 and 9 of the relay by the same time. pin 4 is in contact to pin 3 so current runs trough the resistor R 1 to fill the capacitor C1. when C1 is filled,( friction of a second, current comes to pin 1 and the relay operates. to avoid flickering of the relay, C1 is giving wheilst switching the power to the relays coil.
when relay is in ON position, current is now on pin 5 and on pin 8 as well. pin 8 serves now the actualy Ignition unit,.
theweil pin 5 is giving the current trough diode D1 and the Zener Diode DZ2 to the relays coil.
the two Diodes are set to reduce this onboard voltage by around a fix voltage of 2.7 volts.
as the relays coil is usualy releasing by 3.2 volts, we have to add the 2.7 what it operates back to release now, so it releases in reality by this 5.9 onboard voltage now.
so this is the LOW VOLTAGE SAVETY CUT OFF PART.

looking at the relay in operated position, from pin 8 the current enters the LDO Type LM 1084 iT.
this thing is to restrict a maximum voltage on the pin "out".
this maximum output voltage is set by the Resistore R3, so output on pin "out" is 10.0 Volts.
this LDO is NOT restricting voltage to the low side, this means, it will give out any voltage down from 10 V.
and this voltage on "out" will be always 0.8 volt lower than the incoming voltage!

so, when onboard voltage drops to 5.9 volts, ( wich is the lowest possible ) "out" on the LDO willbe only 5.1 volts.
but still, by 5.1 volts to the B on the Transistore there is enough Amps ,370 mAmps, to drive the transistore corectly.
the diode D3 makes shure there is no higher voltage on pin "out" in compare to pin "in" of the LM1084, because this is something it may brake the LM.
Resistore R2 and the fallowing LED 1 ( green color ) are to indicate is there a fault in the unit like Fuse F brocken ore Relay not "ON" ore LM1084 brocken.
the 10 volts are sentd to the points, and hopefully coming back to the Resistores R6 and R 7.
they are both from a strong type 30 Watts each, so the 10 Watts they have to cop with are savely devidet for good heat transmition.
together in parallel they have 8.5 Ohms, this means as a current of 950 mAmps is going in to the Base of the Transistore BUT 34.
BUT 34 is a strong thing, 500 Volts on line C to E, up to 50 Amps is possible to switch and on line B to E it cops with 10 Volts and max 10 Amps as well.

the Resistore R4 is a pull down for the Base of T1 to make it switching fast and savely.

the Resistore R5 and the LED 2 ( red color ) are set to indicate is there voltage coming from the points, so it is helpfull to set Ignition timing.
when points open, ( moment of the Spark occuring ) the red LED will go "OFF".
if the green LED will be on and the red will never going on for a example, the line to the points must be interrupted. ( maybe by a mouse ore something like....)

puhh, it tooks me a weil to get it, but now comes the more handy part to bring it on to the bike, wich I do prefere to do of cause...
beat <212

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Re: It sparks

Postby skippy » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:55 pm

Hi Beat
Question when it switches off from low voltage, what voltage does it switch back on again? What affect does a buzzing normal to low voltage have on it, as in the transistor switching the coil on and volts droping below trigger level but rising up again after volts is switched off?
Yours faithfully
Curly Question Doug <201
Doug
Should never have sold them old motorbikes

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steve m
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Re: It sparks

Postby steve m » Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:04 am

:shock: <201 right-ho you 2. i don't know what language you're speaking, but the language of this forum is english. ;-) :lol:
beat,
i don't understand it but, oh boy do i respect it (and you) and i really hope it works for you :thumb

steve

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:12 pm

hi all,
skippy wrote: when it switches off from low voltage, what voltage does it switch back on again?

clearly the 7.6 Volts are needet.
the 5.9 Volts and lower = OFF,
the 7.6 Volts and higher = ON
skippy wrote:What affect does a buzzing normal to low voltage have on it, as in the transistor switching the coil on and volts droping below trigger level but rising up again after volts is switched off?

sorry skipp, - I do not know what it means :oops: :oops:
steve m wrote:i really hope it works for you

me two steve :lol: :lol:
next springtime when engine back to me and in fraim it will show up - yes ore no :mrgreen:

BTW, some of you may ask what fore the LM 1084 is, the reason to restricting Voltage to the Top of 10.0 Volts maximum.
the explanation is: a good range of the Ampères passing the points is 0.350 A in minimum ( to feed the Transistore properly and generating a surtain cleening effect on the points ) - and around 1 Ampère in maximum because long livety of the Points.
now as the 12 Volts onboard are not stable in reality, no, they variate from 14.5 Volts TOP to somewhere 3 Volts LOWEST in case of a electrical Fault somewhere in the circuit, it is a must to stabilising the Voltage in to a range where the recomandet Ampères are keept.

beat

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Re: It sparks

Postby skippy » Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:39 pm

Buzzing is the same as your relay was doing before the capacitor was added, in other words the power switches on and off very quickly, eg vibrating contact in ignition switch. Another thing is when the battery goes high resistance shows 12v on no load and 3v on load.
Doug being difficult
Doug
Should never have sold them old motorbikes

beat
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:44 pm

Hmmmm, <201
the test metode may be telling something abouth this question:

all parts in place on the breadboard, I can variate, slow ore fast, easely the voltage to the unit wheilst running it.
so, - no buzzing at any voltage in between 0 and 25 Volts !
usualy on the bike, there will be a voltage somewhere in between 11 ore 12.5 Volts when Ignition Switch is turned on.
the little relay operates allways with a little "clack", what ever switching speed ore voltage is.
it seams as it is on the save side now.
beat <212

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minetymenace
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Re: It sparks

Postby minetymenace » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:09 pm

I keep meaning to have a good look at you circuit beat, asI have a picture in my head of a schmitt trigger circuit using an op-amp.....but just when I thought most of the kids had left home and I'd get some time, they all seem to be coming back.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.

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Mark Cook
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Re: It sparks

Postby Mark Cook » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:56 pm

Not easy to see Beat, but this is my solution

Igt.jpg
CCM Britain motorcycles and spares manufactured exclusively by PES

+44 (0) 1709 894192
http://www.ccm-britain.co.uk (online shopping experiance)

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:30 pm

<201 <201 <201
a low voltage cut off ??
beat <201

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:54 pm

it comes slowly but shurely....

DSCN1995.jpg
the frontside....

DSCN1994.jpg
and the rear side with some first parts on it.....( all the ones they need cooling )


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Re: It sparks

Postby minetymenace » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:59 pm

:thumb
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.

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Re: It sparks

Postby Barry Creary » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:10 pm

Very nice work Beat :thumb


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