It sparks

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:19 pm

DSCN2000.jpg
halfway done....


it is getting a bit narrow.....
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Re: It sparks

Postby skippy » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:00 pm

A tap here and there with the hammer will bring it into alignment. Well done. :thumb
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:50 pm

DSCN2004.jpg
who is where ???

not tested yet but no parts leftover, so I guess all is in place ( hopefully :oops: )
- no tap with the Hammer - and able to close the box....
DSCN2001.jpg
the size of the Transistore Switch is: 2 inches by 3 inches by 1 inch

DSCN2006.jpg

DSCN2002.jpg

now it needs to testrun it and if all ok, all the gremlins will be covered by plasti dip.no Araldite used this time.
with the plasti-dip it will be reparable I gues. ( if ever needet to... )
beat :???:

unlucky my 70years old sewing motor on my testbench failed agayn !
but this time he was doing it more clever then bevore: it is switching OFF the light in my all house!
it seams as the fault is located in the isolating of the windings, so the FI ( Fehlerstromschutzschalter , english ??? ) is detecting more then 30mAmps and cuts off the power.
result : me and my wive are sitting in the dark several times :oops:
not as this is something realy unusual.... :oops: but it was helping a lot to get the credit for to buy a new motor :grin:

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Re: It sparks

Postby vetterlatethanever » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:22 pm

Hi Beat thats looking very professional !

Fehlerstromschutzschalter in english RCD ;-)

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:22 pm

RCD : residual-current-operated protective device
FI : Fehlerstromschutzschalter

I breack my tongue.... :ban :ban >44 >44
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Re: It sparks

Postby Jack Gifford » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:49 am

Very nice packaging job!

Here in the U.S. your "cause of darkness" is known as GFI- Ground Fault Interrupter. [My tour in Deutschland didn't teach me enough to literally translate 'Fehlerstromschutzschalter'; feel free to enlighten me, Beat]
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:02 pm

Jack Gifford wrote: known as GFI- Ground Fault Interrupter.

vetterlatethanever wrote:RCD

beat wrote: residual-current-operated protective device

beat wrote:FI : Fehlerstromschutzschalter


Ohh. what a complicated world it is today!!!

but this things working good, saving lives maybe but as usual: good sides and bad sides are very close together....
beat :lol:

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Re: It sparks

Postby AWJD » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:46 pm

Fehlerstromschutzschalter - fault current protection switch
1971 B25T x 2
1971 B50T
1973 B50MX

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Re: It sparks

Postby minetymenace » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:52 pm

ESD ≠ BFI
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Re: It sparks

Postby Jack Gifford » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:42 am

AWJD wrote:Fehlerstromschutzschalter - fault current protection switch
Thanks!

Hey Minety- how'd you produce that 'not equal' symbol? (I've always resorted to the old typewriter approach of '</>').
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Re: It sparks

Postby minetymenace » Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Jack Gifford wrote:Hey Minety- how'd you produce that 'not equal' symbol? (I've always resorted to the old typewriter approach of '</>').


Somewhere in Windows there is a thing called "Character Map" which displays all the characters and enables you to copy them to the clipboard.
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Re: It sparks

Postby Ian Hingley » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:18 pm

In IT, I use <> or !=

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Re: It sparks

Postby minetymenace » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:48 pm

You can also hold down the "ALT" key and bash in a number....but the only one I can remember is ALT + 187 gives you º, the degree symbol
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:03 pm

have tested the Transistore Ignition Switch today.
by now, the old sewing motor failed totaly with a loud " BANG" , so I used a Handdrilling to drive the Testbench.

DSCN2012.jpg
Handdrill driven Points

will run it more time tomorrow when Akku of the Drill is fully charget.
as everithing in the "Wusel" seams to work well, next will be to coat the small parts with Plasti Dip to protect it from moister and dust and fibratings.
DSCN2014.jpg
protection needet for the parts

DSCN2015.jpg
Plasti Dip, - dos anyone knowing it ?

is there something I have to care for by using this stuff ?
it seams to com from the US ?

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:07 pm

have had it running some more time on the testbench today.
everithing seams to be ok.
none of the parts was getting evan warmer than 40 ° C. abouth.

so I started coating:

DSCN2016.jpg


this isolating Plasti Dip is a not so liquid smeare, - could not getting it nicely between the wires and others.
was needing several layers to get the holes filled.
DSCN2017.jpg

it is time consuming because it needs time to dry after each go...
beat <982

BTW, the part where the Transistore BUT 34 is located I use the red coating,
the rest will be black covered.

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Re: It sparks

Postby minetymenace » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:49 pm

Other makes/kinds of potting compound found here
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Re: It sparks

Postby skippy » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:42 am

Whose football team is black and red anyway. The poting mix stuff is very confusing so many to choose from.
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Re: It sparks

Postby Ian Hingley » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:02 am

minetymenace wrote:Other makes/kinds of potting compound found here


Hmm. not sure whether to go for anti-vibration or flame-retardant! :thumb

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Re: It sparks

Postby Ian Hingley » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:06 am

skippy wrote:Whose football team is black and red anyway. The poting mix stuff is very confusing so many to choose from.


AC Milan play in black and red. But beat's system is DC ...

Image

Minetymenace plays in black and red too!

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:23 pm

how ever, first layer in black:
DSCN2021.jpg


( not running in adidas shoes and not flying emirates :oops: )

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:37 pm

BTW, was reading some of your compounds data sheets.
thanks gents, but, - I must say as I do not understand much of the things, I have to chose " over the thumb".
I may would go for the clear spray type next time,- we will se.....
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:02 pm

got the new sewing motor for my testbench today
DSCN2030.jpg
looks a bit strongly " chineeese "

but it works, evan the foot pedal is doing the job until now.
DSCN2032.jpg
needing a beter braket then my hand....

can't await to get my new TIS running for a longer time to see: it is doing it ( ore not :oops: )
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Re: It sparks

Postby minetymenace » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:09 pm

You should have embedded a thermocouple beat. So far so good :)
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Re: It sparks

Postby Mark Cook » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:59 am

What's the maximum rpm you can achieve Beat?
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:53 pm

Mark Cook wrote:What's the maximum rpm you can achieve Beat?

the electric motor should rev 10 000 they say.
if I get 4 000 on the points cam - by my age - I will be happy
DSCN2034.jpg

bracket and motor in place. may need a other transmition to get the 4 000 openings of the points within a minute,- I will see.
DSCN2035.jpg

as the table in the livingroom is free now ( it was occupaied by the Chritmas Tree for some weeks) now I can install my mesuring stuff agayn.
interesting the use of the Fluke 192 Scope meter wich is working perfectly now !
will post the all story shortly in y other topic....
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:32 pm

Mark Cook wrote:What's the maximum rpm you can achieve Beat?

just had it running now for longer, it dos 3488 rpm. on the points.
so this is shortly by 7 000 rpm for the crankshaft on the B50.

guess it is enough for me at the moment ( may not be enough for Stans HP engines... :grin: )


nice to se the bouncing of the points at the signal by each closing....
DSCN2054.jpg
the opening signal of the points...

but as the important slope from the points is the OPENING side, this bouncing by closing is not disturbing the process of switching the coil at any time.

I will se is there a signifficant difference of the bounces by different rpm's of the points.....
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:29 pm

hi all
the bouncing of the points:

at first I guess it is not each set of points the same abouth bouncing.
the set I do have here on the Testbench is from a 1000 cc Harley Davidson Sportster Jubile year 1978 ore nearby.
it is adjusted to 0.3 mm gap, the cam is very steep on both sides, - opening and closing.
DSCN2064.jpg
the points and the cam I use on the testbench

this steep cam on the closing side is pron to produce bouncing I guess.
anyway,
DSCN2059.jpg
at 4380 rpm

as to see, first little signs of bouncings after the points opening coming up....
DSCN2062.jpg
bouncings in the focus

a closer look shows the bouncings are finished 300 mycro Sec. after the signal, say points closed.



at 5850 rpm it makes a real second step

DSCN2065.jpg
a clear case of " bouncing "

DSCN2067.jpg
the signal lenght itself is 1.52 mSeconds

DSCN2066.jpg
the " Bouncer " is finished by 320 mycro seconds after the points closing


so, what is to say abouth the fairy tale of points bouncing ?
IMO, evan with this "unlucky " shape of a lobe, it needs more than 5000 rpm's engine to have points bouncing on a single.
the time of " getting lost to charge the coil " because the bouncing is 9.6 Degrees flywheel, by a opening angle of 45 degrees of the points opening.
so a other 304 degree remayn to charge the coil wheilst points are realy closed.
noting to worry abouth by the rpms as a B50 is used in the travic I say.

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Re: It sparks

Postby minetymenace » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:51 pm

You could always put a capacitor across the points, a condenser maybe? But as you say, its on the closing side so it shouldn't matter, does the points bounce generate a spark in at the plug?
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Re: It sparks

Postby Jack Gifford » Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:39 am

Thanks for your research, beat.
Your test setup apparently doesn't drive the primary of a coil? The voltage waveform shows that the points are merely switching a resistive load (no reactive component to create oscillation on points-opening).
I agree with you, that the closing-bounce should not do any significant harm. Even if a spark were created (as Minety asked), it would not be at a piston-position to do any harm.
Any B50 points & cam tested yet?
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Re: It sparks

Postby steve m » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:01 am

is that my B50 rockers rattlin' or is that my HD points slamming shut, <201 ? where's my ear plugs! :lol:
i think Stan's logic is relevant here, that is, if the points on a h*nda can rev safely to 10,000 rpm then they should be okay on a B50 up to 7,000. i wonder what the purpose of the pointy cam is on the HD?
<201 interesting stuff Beat.

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:08 pm

minetymenace wrote:You could always put a capacitor across the points, a condenser maybe? But as you say, its on the closing side so it shouldn't matter, does the points bounce generate a spark in at the plug?

as the coil is by far to lazy, langourous, and the time the points have been in closed position is only around 150 mycro seconds, ( gap between the signal and the beginning of the bounce ), so there is symply no time to charge the coil ad all. ergo, - no spark ever seen ore mesured. :cool: and no capacitor needet I would say.

Jack Gifford wrote:Your test setup apparently doesn't drive the primary of a coil? The voltage waveform shows that the points are merely switching a resistive load (no reactive component to create oscillation on points-opening).

you are right Jack, just a resistor 56 Ohms / 5 Watt, voltage 5 to 18V for testing the Points signal on the bench.
but similar signal by running the above descripted Transistore Switch Ignition where the points just drive the transistores Base, - so no load from the coil on the points.
Jack Gifford wrote:Any B50 points & cam tested yet?

no, not yet, but I surch allready for some stuff in my basket to get it ready for the testbench....
steve m wrote:i think Stan's logic is relevant here,

I think so two,because:

lower than 4500 rpm, there is no bouncing.--- and higher than 4500 rpm, there is no time to charge / discharge the coil !

so I would say: coil bouncing is never a argument agains using a set of points on a single :!:

beat :grin:

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:48 pm

Jack Gifford wrote:Any B50 points & cam tested yet?


found two BSA cams, - very different versions.
DSCN2076.jpg
left two BSA cams, right the HD Sportster

the left one has the lobe nearly 180° around. I do not know from wich model it is. any ideas ??
the middle one is the type I do use in my engine. clearly to see as it has a softer lift and release then the right HD one.
will prepare some spacers to get them fit on the bench...
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:14 pm

Hmmmm, <201
beat wrote:the middle one is the type I do use in my engine.

this is not the true, sorry.
by having a closer look on my parts, I found again a other camform in use on my bike:
DSCN2078.jpg
different cams

the one on the ATU is in use ( if I do have a engine :oops: :oops: - Mark Cook, - where is it :?: :?: )
it has clearly the shortest lobe but stil with a soft rising and falling.
so I have 3 different cams from BSA's, - wonder if anyone can tell me from wich model they are ?
in two ore three days it will be ready to check the signal
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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:00 pm

as it is so quiet in the forum............
test1.jpg
again, the 4. time first the paperwork

test1 2.jpg
the part list

DSCN2505.jpg
the testing it on the board

test22.jpg
the measured results

DSCN2497.jpg
the fined cooling plate

DSCN2503.jpg
the parts and the housing

and the make of it....
DSCN2506.jpg
fitting the parts they needing cooling


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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:27 pm

Transistor Ignition Switch 4. Generation on the way... ( Points Booster in a other language ?? )

DSCN2512.jpg

DSCN2515.jpg
abouth same size as the 3. Generation

DSCN2520.jpg
everithing on place now

DSCN2525.jpg
the little thing comes to the surgery....


and finally tested......
DSCN2524.jpg
first short testrunns are looking good ......


will come up soon WHY a new one and WHAT is the difference to the Nr. 3 Generation wich is stil running good.

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Re: It sparks

Postby beat » Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:23 pm

hi all,
DSCN2527.jpg
at about 7 000 rpm's.......


a nice firework, from suply voltage of 7 Volts to starting it up to 17 Volts, and then back to only 5 Volts to switch it OFF again.
ON again by 7 V, - OFF by 5 V.
exactly what I was looking for!

the reason to build a new one was to use a other Power Transistore.
the Nr. 3 Generation had a BUT 34 in , a very rough thing. excellent for using a big car coil wich would take up to 10 Amperes.

the one now , the Nr. 4 Generation is using the MJH 10012, but not in the TO-3case like the others, it is in the TO-218 housing.

and it works well, just the Resistore Nr 6 is generating 4 Watts wich is needing the cooling fins.

well, some more test runs on the bench and then coating with Plastidip for the finish.

after this, I have to wait for end of winter and end of february because then I will be RETIRED ( mostly :oops: )

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Re: It sparks

Postby hwan » Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:08 pm

BEAT - i've come late to this thread so please excuse my question - but what are you trying to achieve please?

If a 'points' switched system, the easiest solution is for the points to operate an 08M PIC - using this to 'debounce' the points and and one/multi 510 MOSFETS to drive a std. coil (I've also used very heavy duty single MOSFET used in automotive applications ... can provide details is required)
Using the PIC to determine 'dwell' to produce a single or double spark of frightening intensity (+3") and a lot of ozone !!!

I have built a couple of these using a VW distributor (thats where it went Andy - do you want it back?) running up to ~3,000 rpm = something like 12,000 sparks/min. for demonstration purpose but not fitted to an engine.

It is also very easy to use an optical and a hall switch in the above.

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Re: It sparks

Postby minetymenace » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:15 pm

hwan wrote:what are you trying to achieve


Probably best read the whole thread (and maybe some previous ones too).

beat is trying to make a small electronic device that will remove the power switching from the points to make them last longer, boost the spark, and be able to ditch the electronics and return to points/coil ignition if he breaks down on the road. It also has to run at low voltage, be blue in colour and keep him entertained during the cold Swiss winters.

Of all the possible ways of making sparks, I think a micro controller would be pretty low on beat's list.
Think: I want to build something so that I can talk to someone at a distance. Answer: Megaphone, not Smartphone.
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Re: It sparks

Postby hwan » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:56 pm

You can always use two tins and some string ......

I have read the thread and wasn't clear what the aim was.
Yes there's no finer way of spending endless hours than messing with electronics, particularly as you can usually do it inside, somewhere warm.

As for using an 8 leg microprocessor or a 555 - you are far more likely to have switching trouble with the 555 (which even static can trip!) than going digital where you only have the on/off states - but hey ho, at least it keeps the brain active.


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