It sparks

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Post by beat » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:35 pm

hy minety, the probe has no calibration, it is just made up from high precisely resistors. I can not remember the details enimore cause of 30 year back made up.
this measurements are taken in the free air of our livingroom, with a <213 of tea nearby for me and a <203 of coffe for my wife too.
the plug gap was 0.5mm. as I have realised is this gap very importand for the first peak in the voltage. by 0.7mm it needs a higher value for the sparc to ocure.
abouth the HT current to work out, I do not know haw to do it. but I ask myself , is it importend to know as long as I have the original spark to compare with ? "measuring" is in my ays aniway "comparing". :uhu
:grin: I am wery hapy that you agree with me that this is not a great loss,and I planed realy to get the bike running this summer. <216

interesting the note of chobbler with this twin spark for high performance.
I guess it makes sens to runn a two plug head and two separate sparks wich are in harmony with the flamfront and of cause with load,refs,temp,etc.

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Post by minetymenace » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:43 pm

beat, you are right, the more I think about this the less I think current matters. When the arc strikes and the gas in the gap is ionised, it is effectively a short circuit. The key I think is getting the energy into the coil in the first place, either by over driving it (ie when the "points" mech or electronic are closed) maybe with a high frequency source/voltage doubler etc or by using a bigger coil....

I think you will get a spark however wide the gap, as the volts will eventualy reach a point where an arc will strike (hopefully across the plug gap).

I also think your apparatus would make an excellent dinner party novelty, I see you saying: "Everybody hold hands and watch the oscilloscope...."

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Post by Mark Cook » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:11 am

Beat, I've been thinking about direct coupling for voltage measurement and I don't like it. So I had a look around and found.
http://www.picotech.com/auto/secondary_ ... ickup.html


As for current, I'm sure this was a problem with early inverter systems. They used to erode the plug gap something terrible.

Well I've been sucked in, after all my test rig needed upgrading. Honest it's for work, not just play. I have now all the bits to build a new office PC so an old one can be used to drive the scope module. Don't fancy mixing HT with a new PC. Also I will be able to do more stator tests as well. The rig has two spindles, one running at half speed. I also need to make a spark gap timing adaption to it. Strobe lamps don't light high output ignition systems. You can't trust them.
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Post by minetymenace » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:29 pm

Mark, if you are going to get a picoscope, you won't need a strobe, all the timing can be done with the scope. I havn't looked at the sample waveforms, but it seems to be the tool for the job. I must come over and have a look at the rig, I did pop round the other day, but you were out/asleep or something....

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Post by Mark Cook » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:17 am

You do need a strobe to calibrate new triggers. Sorry I do get to escape sometimes. Mind you I could have been laid up with this horrible cold thing. Looks like it going to have another go at me today :(

Tis all a mess at the moment. Had a bash at sticking together the new PC last night. Power suppy didn't have ATA power conectors on it :( What a life lol
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Post by beat » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:43 pm

that probe looks good and it is not that expensive I think.
about a higher energy in the spark, the capacitive HKZ system is working with abouth 450 volts DC on primary side of the coil but the spark is typical in a length of around 1 millisecond only. I will try to set two sparks folowig each other to reach a double time.
at the moment I put my nose in to each rubishbin and scrapcontayner to find cheap materials for the two housings I have planed. inside one box I will procede the 450 volts DC out of the 12 volts DC. in the other box then I would like to have the capacitors and the switching device.
se what miracles are colectible within one summer is half the game :mrgreen:
hy mark, wishes you god healt and not loosing to much Hair with this fu..computer!
beat

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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:12 pm

hi guys,
last dezember I have decidet to make a new point plate.
by this opertunity I checked the points, because there are now 6 000 Km`s on them with this selfmade transystor Ignition.
a few pics, and watch the points surface, it is nothing cleaned nor polished !!
the old rusty plate, macking problems by water entering the housing
it seams as this new plate and this set of points will keep for the next at least 200 000 Km`s as the transystore ignition system is promysing. <055 :mrgreen:

-
BSA986.jpg
points 6 k kms unpoliert
beat <120
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alu pointplate dez 08
BSA985.jpg
vorher orig. 1973

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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:18 pm

Yes beat, the contact looks like new, thanks to the very small switching current, but what about the wear on the points heel and the scatter caused by the slop in the advance/retard.

Full electronic pickup and advance/retard is the way forward.
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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:42 pm

hi all,
got on to the not working Transistore ignition today.
as to read in Tales of Woe --pushbike ; it stoped working because dropping Voltage, I guess it was coming lower then 8 ore evan 6 Volts in this case.
built in Jan. 2007, it has done more then 20 000 Km`s so far.
DSCN1299.jpg
the Ign. Switch after 6 years working.
the only visuable thing is a slightly burningmark on the 27 Ohm / 5 Watt Ceramic Resistor
tested this resistore, = it is OK.
then, I digged out the little electronic:
DSCN1303.jpg
using a 3.0 MM drill and a small Proxxon.
it tooks a weil to get it out.... - ore let say: it was easyer to gluening it in then to get it out <216
DSCN1304.jpg
DSCN1305.jpg
cleaned all so far...
DSCN1309.jpg
cleaned and tested the Resistore : find it OK
then, tested the MJ 10012 Transistore on my little testrig:
DSCN1311.jpg
and there it was: it dos NOT producing a spark, - evan as it still switches!!
this semi conductores are able to fu**ç!$ you in a ugly way :!: :!:
replacing the Transistore by a new one - and it all works agayn !!!

but now, I will modify the circuit for getting it saver at the corner of low Voltage.
as I am pretty shure the problem is on the BASE of this device, ( the MJ 10012 has a max V of 8 Volt on the BASE , the BASE is the Port where 12 V + are coming from the Points.) there is this 27 Ohm Resistore to reduce the 12 Volts to the 8 Volts max as recommendet.

so now, I will feed with the 12 Volts + from the points a L7805 Voltage Regulator ( VR ) wich has a constant outlet of 5 Volts.

this VR works from 7 Volt to 20 Volts, if the inlet drops lower the 7 Volts, it just stops giving out anything, wich should protect the MJ from breaking by low Voltage on the BASE.

a first layout looks like this:
DSCN1312.jpg
Question to minety and others: can you see any mistakes so far ???
beat <017 <018 <127

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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:50 pm

No sure you want a 100μF cap on the base, why so big?

Be interesting to see if the 7805 wil cope with being turned on and off so fast, it is a voltage regulator and may see the points switching as ripple in the supply.

Tell me beat, yo want to keep the points so that if the electronics failed, you could just wire in the coil, so why push the bike? Bite the bullet and go electronic everything!
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Re: It sparks

Post by Mark Cook » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:27 pm

I still think the switching of the points needs conditioning with an anti-bounce circuit. Then the output can be adjusted to suit the electronic switch.
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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:19 pm

Agree, a low pass filter is called for. But as the rest of the circuit is fairly basic, I don't think it would make much difference in this case.
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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:03 pm

hi all,
not shure about this capacitor of 100uF. I was thinking abouth the 300milli Amps the 7805 needs to bring each time.
time means: min. 4 Hz , max. 80 Hz.
the cap could help to the 7805er a bit, - but it may disturb the signal??-- I must see.
minetymenace wrote:interesting to see if the 7805 wil cope with being turned on and off so fast
the only thing the datasheet says abouth frequency is :
Bild 1.png
it is all a bit " chineese " to me, but it seams as it could work??



the past of the story:
minetymenace wrote:so why push the bike?
as the mainswich was not giving enough voltage, the standard coil ignition was not working either !
( this was why I was surching so long on everithing else like coil, capacitor, points and wiring.... :oops: :oops: )

Mark Cook wrote:points needs conditioning with an anti-bounce circuit.
I do not think so.
because the ignition coil is something so " slow " - needing long loading time in a inductive ignition system as the BSA uses, - it dos ( can ) not react by points bouncings.
any reaction would be a next, unloved spark, but there is never one to se, not evan by 5000 sparks a minute.


Question: what Capacity would you advice to set in state of the 100uF I was thinking ??
beat <201

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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:20 pm

Assuming you are going for the TO220 case, I think this is capable of about 2A or more, even though it is rated at less than two amps. This should be more than enough to drive the base current, and I see you have chosen the base resistor to give a similar max base current (about 300mA from memory).

The capacitor/resistor has a time constant of about 1.5ms, so is too big IMHO. I would not uses one to start with, any cap placed here will add a time delay between the points and the coil (all be it on time rather than off in this case). If noise becomes a problem, may be a few nf to get rid of the spikes.

I hope the 7805 hase time to switch on and off at max rpm. Looking at Fig 10 you may be pushing it (again)
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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:01 pm

hi all,
tested the 7805er just with smal load of 20mA and 4 to 100 Hz.: it works !
now the final cicuit :
transzü13.jpg
transistor swich 2. generation
as to see, a vew savety devices to protect this 5 Volt Bug.
today, I put al the stuf on to the Tesdboard,
DSCN1314.jpg
and it realy Sparks !
( Load : 350mA )
can not see any fires dancing out of the line, no holy smoke until now.
shurely needs more runtime to be on the save side, - but it looks not so bad .
come whit the result a bit later...
beat <216

BTW, minety, I have got away with the big capacitor, - just using 330nF on IN- and 100nF on OUT of the L7805.
but I just asking me: - would it be beter to go for 6 ore 7 Volts by the 78XXer ?

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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:56 pm

glad it works beat, have you got those diodes the wrong way round on the drawing again?

R3 seems to be a heater, why is that there?
beat wrote:would it be beter to go for 6 ore 7 Volts by the 78XX
Looking at the circuit, I think you are probably getting 6v out anyway, I cannot see any advantage in going for one voltage over another.
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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:30 pm

hi minety,
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: - abouth the diodes :oops: :oops: :oops:

abouth the R3: he is in line with a LED (red ,taking 18 mA ), this will be ON when points closed and OFF when points open.
so it makes it easier to adjust ignition timing. ( big improvement on this 2. generation Transistore switch :lol: :lol: )
the R2 it may not need, as it is set for a Pull Down for the MJ 10012.
it may makes more sense to set the R3+LED line at this place of the R2 and save the R2.
what do you think ?
beat

BTW, the Voltage on the Base to T1 ( MJ10012 ) is now 4.8 Volts only. <201

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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:23 pm

Can't read the circuit very well, bad eyesight, poor screen etc, if you have a high res circuit diagram (with the diodes the right way round :roll: ), pop it on an e-mail and Ill have a look (couldn't tell the R3 was a I limit for an LED!)
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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:19 pm

hi minety,
trying agayn to get the circuit in, hope it is readable this time.. :oops: :oops:
DSCN1315.jpg
the Transistore Ignition. using 7805 for avoid over- and undervoltage the Base.
DSCN1316.jpg
D5, not shure it is needet ???
what do you think ?
beat

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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:13 pm

Just a quick look.
The two zeners are still the wrong way round on the circuit (not in reality or they would have gone bang!)
What is D4 for? In its current position it will have the effect of raising the o/p of the 7805 to 6 volts.
What is R3 for? as you have D5, all it does is make heat (unless you know different)
R1 and R2 could be replace with a single 10 ohm resistor (saving space)
If you want 20mA through the LED, R4 needs to be 150ohms, so at 120ohms it is a little low.

I have re-drawn the circuit.

Disclaimer: My mind is 95% tied up with how I am going to get all the pipes routed in my new bathroom and hold Stan ('cos he has broad shoulders) responsible for any errors I have made in the above.
beatspark.jpg
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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:07 pm

Looking at the spec for the transistor, you are driving it at about 0.5A, you could drive it harder if you wanted to, maybe reduce R1/R2 to say 5 ohms, you have abviously done some calculations for your (combined) 10 ohm value, why did you pick 10 ohms?
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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:41 pm

hi minety,
yes, the transistore is driven by abouth 0.5 Amps now. calculation : 5 Volts devidet by 10 Ohms =0.5 Amps.
if we look at the datasheet:
DSCN1335.jpg
datasheet MJ10012- ON characteristics
as to see, Collector- Emitter Saturation Voltage : Example: I C= 6 Amps, I B=600mA == 2 Volts, so I have chosen the value of 500mA by 5 Volts suply.
over the thump it should be good for a B50, coilAmps around 3 A.
two Resistores I have chosen because I can devide the heat they do make in to the double surface of this two parts as they get covered with glue compleately.
the last one, 12 Volts by 27 Ohms and 5 Watt Resistore was getting a bit hot, so the Araldite I was using as a filling was getting brown color, indicating as it was a bit to warm... :oops:
minetymenace wrote:you could drive it harder if you wanted
the 7805 is a 1.5 Amps thing, running it on 0.5 Amps it is getting hot already, so I will fitting it thermicaly connected to the finned housing, but electricaly insolated of cause.
guessing I should keep it not to high abouth the Amps I let trough it....
minetymenace wrote:What is D4 for
D7 it is sayd in the internet it is important as the 7805 do not like any higher voltage on the Outlet-side then on the Inletside otherwise it gos bang.
now my use of this 7805er is a bit unusual, interrupted 12 volts by up to 80Hz on Inlet and driving directly a BASE of a transistore wich handles up to 400 Volts each OFF time.
so, who says as there is never a higher voltage on OUT of the 7805er , coming from the BASE ?
this is why D5 and D4 is set for, avoiding high voltage coming from BASE ore NET of the all bike wiring.
but probably, D5 is on the wrong place, - it should be positioned just after the 7805 ??
minetymenace wrote:What is R3 for
it should be a " pull down " for the BASE, but it is the LED allready working as pull down? if fast enough, it dos not need R3, you are right.
minetymenace wrote:If you want 20mA through the LED, R4 needs to be 150ohms, so at 120ohms it is a little low.
Hmm, I will go once more trough it, thanks.
so far today,
beat <017

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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:53 am

Hi beat, when I said D4 I may have read it wrong, I mean this one:
D4 location.JPG
This will raise the o/p of the 7805 by about a volt.

Yes I think the LED/resistor will act as a pull down.

All you need do now is replace the transistor with an IGBT and you have virtualy no current through the points. :roll:
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Re: It sparks

Post by skippy » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:27 pm

Back in my day it was beneficial to have a bit of current through the points to stop them from going high resistance,which was the biggest bugbear of my old CDI ignition.
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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:54 pm

skippy, I am trying to convince beat to do away with his points, all this talk about wanting to keep the points just in case the electronics fail, beat still pushed it rather than bypassing the electronics! The points will draw about half an amp with the proposed setup, so maybe this will be fine.
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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:50 pm

hi gents,
yes, the points are needing a minimum of 250 mA to keep " clean " as my intelligente book says.
a value of 500 mA is shurely good, so this is what I am after.
until now it was running at 350 mA and yes, the smalest drop of water was able to making it not working :(
minetymenace wrote:Hi beat, when I said D4
yes minety, D4 . D4 is set to avoid any peaks coming from the wiring to the GROUND ore the OUTLET side of the 7805er.
because, in the moment when Points are open and IN of the 7805 is low in Voltage, OUT ore Ground could be higher,= big danger to brake the 7805er.
D4, D5 and D7 should avoid this situation.
BTW, 6 Volts in state of 5 volts on the Base of the Transi is no danger, - the Mj10012 is stated for 8 Volts max on BASE.

so I will keep away with the R3, using the R4 and the LED as a pull down.
minetymenace wrote: keep the points just in case the electronics fail, beat still pushed it rather than bypassing the electronics!
Ähhh, - well : whenn the carbi brakes down and fueltank is empty --it will rater not be from a big help to connect the fuelhose directly to the inlet valve I guess.... <201 <201 <201
beat, still keeping at the points
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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:49 pm

beat wrote:connect the fuelhose directly to the inlet valve
Wal Philips.JPG
:laugh

Pretty sure the diodes in my circuit are all the protection necessary, did you sell your UBS shares and buy Motorola?

Time to put it back together I think beat!
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Re: It sparks

Post by skippy » Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:41 pm

minetymenace wrote:skippy, I am trying to convince beat to do away with his points, all this talk about wanting to keep the points just in case the electronics fail, beat still pushed it rather than bypassing the electronics! The points will draw about half an amp with the proposed setup, so maybe this will be fine.
I agree with the point removal idea. :thumb
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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:12 am

A little more thought, I think R3 should go back in, but between the base and emitter, not on the 7805 side of the diode.
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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:06 pm

hi all,
new matched circuit.
TRZ G2 22.10.jpg
skippy wrote:convince beat to do away with his points
I will come back to this Point(s),a bit later. -- please wear your raincoat :!: :!: :!:
<902

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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:56 pm

You've removed D5 , so you can forget R3, your LED circuit will sort it out now.

It must be a swiss thing, but if you draw the circuit with the lowest potential at the botton of the page beat, it is much easier to read.
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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:42 pm

hi minety,
minetymenace wrote: but if you draw the circuit with the lowest potential at the botton of the page beat, it is much easier to read.
so the GROUND ore EARTH terminal must be up on the page ?? ---Hmmmm, - this is like trying to sit on a bike wich stays upside down, say wheels up to the sky.
<201 <201 <201 <201 - maybe common in UK, swiss doing this only occasualy after don a a nosedive caused by to much alcohol... ( in the head, - not in the tank )
beat :ban

BTW, thanks for your circuit, it has enlighten me about the polarity of the Diodes <200

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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:35 pm

beat wrote:- this is like trying to sit on a bike wich stays upside down,
All things are relative, (I thought the Swiss taught relativity at Zurich Polly :???: ), surely it is easier to imagine the potential dropping as the (conventional) current falls down the page, all the arrows on the semi-conductors point the right way and show you which way the (conventional) current can flow. It is clear if you picture it like this, that D3 is not necessary.

Got rid of R3 yet?

Lay it out on the bread board and see if you get sparks or flames :thumb

Marmite or toast :laugh
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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:42 pm

hi minety,
R3 stil in place, nice spark, --- but the 7805er is getting very hot.
I know, 12 volt - 5 volt = 7 volt X 0.35A =2.5 Watt. this is the heat it has to give away with the TO220 housing.
as my ignition housing is with fins, it will work, yes.
but : I do ask me: is the DC / DC converter Type : RECOM R-78B5.0-1.0 maybe the beter choice ????
dos this manage the abouth 80 Hz switching ON and OFF by 10 000rpms ???
the heat will shurely be much lower then at the 7805er.
what do you think ??
beat <017 <018 <017

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Re: It sparks

Post by minetymenace » Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:54 pm

Hi beat, my guess is that the R-78B5.0-1.0 will not work (but why trust me, I was sceptical about the 7805). The reason is that it is a switched mode psu, it will take a significant time to switch on and start working.

If your 7805 is getting hot:
1. Remove R3
2. Increase R!/R2
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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:57 pm

hi minety,
have increased R 3 to 2.2 k Ohms,
R1 and R2 increased to 33 Ohms each. = max value to get 300m Amps for the BASE on T1
7805er still hot of cause
beat <201

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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:50 pm

hi minety,
minetymenace wrote: my guess is that the R-78B5.0-1.0 will not work
minetymenace wrote: it will take a significant time to switch on and start working.
Hmmmm <201 <201
yes, the swiching ON time is nowhere sayd,- but if it is by 2 ms as on a Datasheet of a cheaper TRACO product, ( 2ms = 90° Crank by 7500 U/min. ) this time will be addet to the time the points stay open - liftet by the lobe.
it will not delay the spark timing in compare to TDC, because this is set by the Points OPENING, say the switching OFF time of this DC-DC converter.

so, I give it a try, costs me around 15 SFr., maybe just to know: Sh-i**t !

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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:46 pm

hi all,
beat wrote:costs me around 15 SFr., maybe just to know:
yes, now I know it.... :( :( :( :(
will se to get a picture of the signal out from my oszy later.

but: as I have had the problem of the hot 7805er, Lorenz my son got a solution for it :
DSCN1359.jpg
7805er not on Ground, no, Ground is +5 Volts. so using it as a constant current suplyer.
the signal is:
DSCN1357.jpg
the signal on the wide range of rpms
DSCN1358.jpg
the view of a single signal going to the BASE of the Transistore
as to se, the important STEP DOWN of the signal is nicely straight.= Points are opening.
the not important part of the signal when Points are closing is doing a bit a bow, but it is a short time and seams nothing to disturbe the coil charging.
so, some more runs on the testrig and then back in the housing....
beat

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Re: It sparks

Post by beat » Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:00 pm

hi all,
<216
as pictures speaking more then words :
DSCN1395.jpg
the final circuit of this Transistore Switch, note: T1= NTE 98
DSCN1388.jpg
the layout in the case
DSCN1378.jpg
in reality....
DSCN1379.jpg
from the outside.the oval cap covers the NTE98, the red Diode gos OFF when points are open
DSCN1383.jpg
on the Terstbench....
DSCN1382.jpg
nice firework at the Sparkplug Electrodes.....
DSCN1391.jpg
and like six years ago: warming up some glue ( Araldite ) to cover all parts at the inside.
well, giving it a other testrun tomorrow when glue is dry.
next after this will be connecting it on the bike and see, - dos it run ore not.... <216
beat <1010

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Re: It sparks

Post by Ian Hingley » Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:39 pm

It sparks beat!

Fantastic work!

You seem to slipped in a picture of your crack cocaine den at the end! :thumb

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66 BSA Victor Enduro, 72 BSA Lightning, 62 BSA B40 trials, 89 H*nda Bros 650, 96 Aprilia Moto 6.5, 2000 Aprilia Moto 6.5

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