It sparks by CDI

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby minetymenace » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:17 am

Well done beat :thumb

What is the waveform across the coil and across the caps? Be careful measuring this if you don't have isolated channels, use differential mode.

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby steve m » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:31 am

well done, you old wonder nose, you. :thumb
still a bit of refinement to do and testing, but what a great achievement.

steve

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:21 pm

hi Ian,
Ian Hingley wrote:No smoke or fire? Where's the fun in that?

you are playing with the fire :!: :!:

I also do love the combustion, but it must be in between the piston and the valves only !

beat :mrgreen:

BTW, the " Fun " is coming up very soon when I will replace one of the electronic gremmlins by my hands and have vergotten as the 2.2uF Capacitores still have a load of more then 200 Volts in there belly !
a quik change of my hairdress is the result <1002 <119
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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby minetymenace » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:30 pm

Oooo storred charge, makes me sware. We used to charge them up and play catch or spot weld charged caps to the steel frame of the factory....never thought of using them properly. Waht about the waveforms?

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:42 pm

hi minety,
yes, the waveforms, - I will come up with them as soon I get good pictures of it.......
beat ( sitting to long on the Forum :oops: )

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:07 pm

lucky to have it in the livingroom....
DSCN0379.jpg
around iddle, say 900 Rpms

DSCN0380.jpg
and around 2500 Rpms

this is at the Capacitores, 3 of the 2.2uF , so 6.6 uF in total. this is prob to much capacity, all this things needing to bee optimised now.

a lot to do ahead....
beat <216

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby Mark Cook » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:30 pm

How happy are you with your Atten scope Beat, I was thinking of treating myself to one?

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:59 pm

hi mark,
my ATTEN is the Typ : ADS 1062 CML 60 MHz, the price was somewhere by 350 Euro + post and import duty from HongKong.
so, for this price I can say I am very pleased.
there are to many things on it I will never use it, - but this is on any other as well in this sector of speed and price.

the reason why I have chosen this type was: I was looking for something a bit roughly, say max input V= 400, - time base horizontal: 50 seconds/ Division, - vertical sensitivity : 10 Volts / Division and Probe attenuator Factor Set 1000X including.
it could be even ruffer, but I dit not find one at the time.
the only down side : the Manual is aveable in english language only <218
beat :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby minetymenace » Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:47 am

Are your probes calibrated beat?

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby Ian Hingley » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:09 pm

beat wrote:the only down side : the Manual is aveable in english language only


An 'english' manual from Hong Kong probably makes more sense to you than us, beat!

Ian IHOSMILE

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:56 pm

minetymenace wrote:Are your probes calibrated beat?

yes minety, my probes 1 X, 10 X, and 100 X are calibrated. ( the 100 X I just bought and spend a other 85 .- SFr for it :oops: )
this new 100 X is good up to 2500 Volts, so I can mesure the primary side of the Ignition coil with no problems I guess.
the selfmade 1000 X Probe is not calibrated, but I use this one only in combination to my old analoge Oszyloscope.
<216

Ian Hingley wrote:'english' manual from Hong Kong

as far as I can say, - it is very difficult to decide it was a english person translating from chinese to english - ore it was a chinese person translating it :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby besaboy » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:54 pm

Ian Hingley wrote:
beat wrote:the only down side : the Manual is aveable in english language only


An 'english' manual from Hong Kong probably makes more sense to you than us, beat!

Ian IHOSMILE

:laugh :laugh :laugh drink 4 pints of Wilkins cider and all will be clear.. <219 <222 <011 <011 <011 <011

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby minetymenace » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:40 pm

Gosh, is farmer Wilkins still about? I thought he had died, rumour in these parts say he is pickled in his own brew after the local crem refused to burn his remains because of the explosion risk. Famous cider made by a famous man.

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:00 pm

hi all,
with ore witout a mug of cider from farmer Wilkins, for me it is difficult to read this Manual.
evan as the english translation is not this bad, there are a lot of words I do not know them. so it is the perfect holiday reading for me.... :mrgreen:
<059 beat

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby minetymenace » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:25 pm

Had a quick look at the circuit beat...

You want the spark when the points open. Is this happening, or do you get the spark when you close the points?

Can you measure the inductance of the coil (primary) or measure the current going through it at a couple of different (wide apart) revs?

Trigger the scope on the falling edge (not auto) and move the trigger point to the left of the screen. If you do a single shot trigger, it should hold the trace so you can photo it without getting a double image.

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:17 pm

minetymenace wrote:You want the spark when the points open. Is this happening, or do you get the spark when you close the points?

yes minety,- I will the spark when points opening, like standard BSA. it was making me several headache to get it going on a symple way because it needs the all gaim with the values of the Resistores 1 and 3 and the Voltage and Current for the Base of the Transistore MJ10012. ( there in is the reason why I set the MC 78 , this 5 Volt suplier in front of this part of the Signal inverting <214 )
and it is now sparking when points opening, so it will be easier to swich over to standard Ignition in case of a breack down of the CDI alongside the road. :mrgreen:

so, the big step foreward was by using the wellknown " Iron Horse " Transystore MJ 10012, - the one I use since 5 years in my selfmade Transystore Ignition.
this thing seams to be made to cop with rough voltages same as emfs !
( after crashing and burning a real handfull of faster and more modern IGBTS, MOSFETS and other Transistores as to see )
DSCN0381.jpg
all the semiconductor switches I have brocken until now....


the slowliness ot it ( fall time of 15 micro Seconds ) (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/motorola/MJ10012.pdf) may be a downside of this device, - but some more Tests will show what is coming out on it....
- if somebody reades this Datasheet carefully and try to understanding it, - he may imagin what a work is in behind of " making a CDI by himself " :oops: - just to say: there are near on a docent more of this Datasheets and smalers to go trough for finding the right components for the working layout... <216
so it explains prob. a bit why it was taking me nearly 5 years ( winters ) to get it ruffly going, - and I guess two more winters to have it in a form to go on to the B50 I guess <982
beat,
- going snowboarding now for one week.... <217

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby minetymenace » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:09 pm

Will studdy what you said beat, have fun snow boarding :)

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:57 pm

hi minety,
there was fun by the snowboarding,
Samstag Funpark 003.jpg

DSCN0417.jpg

this is something evan nicer to do then riding a motorcycle I say, - realy lovely :grin: :cool: :mrgreen:
sorry, - a bit off topic, but - do not say anything to the moderator, so he will forgetting it anyway!

the next question I do have on the Ignition is the fallowing:
to suply the big amounth of capacity the 800 Volts / 2.2 uF Caps ( 2 ore 3 of them ) can store, I do ask myself: is it better to have one big Transformator to do the 12 Volt / 300 Volt conversion, - ore is it beter to have let say two smaler Travos to do this.
what makes more sens about the Inductivity of this two ways ?
any toughs ??
beat <017

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby minetymenace » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:28 am

One. Get the current into it to get a nice dense magnetic field but don't saturate your core.

beat wrote:this is something evan nicer to do then riding a motorcycle I say


Similarities:
You get cold.
You get wet.
You go fast.
You hurt yourself.
You need special clothing.

Difference.
No point/s in/on snow boarding

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby skippy » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:34 am

beat wrote:2.2 uF Caps ( 2 ore 3 of them ) can store

All the ccts i have seen use only 1 cap of 1 to 2uF.
With all that capacitance wont it restrict the revs at which it will work (charge and discharge times).
Although on a single it is probably not a concern.

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby minetymenace » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:12 am

The capacitors store the charge from the 300v supply.
The spark circuit will take its energy from the 300v supply.
The 300v supply must be capable of supplying the required energy for the spark circuit at what ever revs (averaged over time).
Providing the supply is man enough to recharge the caps before the net spark, there will be an optimum size for the caps such that they will never completely discharge at maximum revs. Too big will be unnecessary, too small and all the energy will be sucked out of them resulting in a weak spark.
The eact value will depend on the efficiency of the circuit, the impedance of the 300v supply and engine max rpm.

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:15 pm

hi min,
a other big difference is as every half Mile is a restaurant where you can have a hot chocolate ore coffe and some nice food as well!!
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

skyp,
yes, you are right. I also have not seen more Capacity then 1 ore 2uF stored.
this is one more reason (Nr.6 BTW ) why I try to make one by miself :mrgreen:
I say: the capacity is one of the most deciding Values in relation of Spark duration !
but as min. says: it needs a strong "maschine" to feed the big capacity, evan when time is given on a single.
so, this is what I am working on now.....
<216

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby skippy » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:19 pm

Keep up the good work I'm learning a lot here. :thumb

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:20 pm

skippy wrote: I'm learning a lot here.

Hmmmmmm, making me thinking.... <201
but I guess you mean the pointless snowboarding.......
<217 <217

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby minetymenace » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:50 am

beat, can you measure the inductance of your coil? Knowing that, the resistance of the coil and the size of the capacitor, you should be able to work out the duration of the spark (in free air) and then confirm it with the 'scope. The theory and practise should be similar. You can also work out the energy of the spark...

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:18 pm

hi minety,
I think, I will come later to this one :
minetymenace wrote:can you measure the inductance of your coil?
minetymenace wrote: work out the duration of the spark

at the moment, I struggle with the ( as guessed ) biggest thing of this project, the " Machine " to produce the 400 Volts.
it dos make only about 140 V by high revs ( 9000 / min.), so far to low.
this means, - ore I guess, it needs a other switching device .
now, there is the square signal from the Bug NE 555 by 24 KHz, max output is 200mAmps by 12 Volts.
this is coming to the GATE on the Mosfet IRF 740, wich switches the 12 Volt by around 5 Amperes from Source to Drain.
now, I think I need to do this in two steps : a first one from the 200milli Amps to let say 2 Amps, and then a second one from 2 to the 5 Amps to make it less sensitive and more savely.
DSCN0421.jpg
the " maschine " to produce the 400 Volts.

I would like to do this with the wellknown Transistore MJ 10012, but it is on max 8 Volts only and to slow with his risetime of 15useconds as well :(
so I do search a combination of two Transistores to get there, - if someone out there has a solution in his toolbag, please let me know....
beat <216

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby skippy » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:45 pm

Hi Beat
Have you looked at this CCT for some ideas.

image.jpg

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:44 pm

hi skyp,
yeas, - I do have it on my Table.
but: - I do not trust it ad all. not as it will not spark, no, but I mean to know as it is a lie.

if I do not miss something, I say: a Standard BSA Ignition ( inductive system ) Spark Duration is about 4 Milli seconds. = 0.004 s.by low and mid Revs - the Oszy picture is in the topic " It Sparks "
a Transistorised inductive system Spark duration is about 10% shorter, I do messure on mine 3.8 Milli seconds. = 0.0038 s.same Revs.

as this SC- DIY-CDI says , a Spark Duration of one of there sparks is about 200 micro ( u ) seconds = 0.0002 s. - THIS SAYS IT IS 20 ( twenty times ) shorter then the standard BSA ignition Spark :!: :!: :!:
now, they say there is set a vew sparks in repeat, - tell me please how to charge ( put a full load in to them ) the 1 uF capacitore within the time of let say 0.004seconds AND firing them to the Plug as well within this time of 0.004 seconds :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
in my eyes, - the first spark will be a typicaly CDI one, by 0.0002 sec. as everywhere to read. - the next ones..... :(
thus guys are just Magiers, if this is possible with this layout of the device :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :?: :?: :?: :?:

I would say: a modern engine will run with - yeas. ( modern means: Air/Fuel Ratio controlled by fuel Injection to a good level over the all periode of Temperature and Trottle range ).
and nobody will see if the next fallowing Sparks are coming to late and are not used anymore ore are weak.

but I wantd more, - and there is the difficulty.
I do surch for a Spark duration of about 0.002 Seconds by a first and only one,( and will be very happy with this ) which is half the Value of the BSA Spark, - but still 10 times longer then from the buyable CDI`s ones.

Well, I do not look at the system just with the eye on to the electronic, - no, - I do maynly look on to it with the eye on to the engine. engine means : Spark duration in relativ to the CRANK DEGREES BY REVS OF LET SAY 1000 RPM; - 4000 RPM AND 8000 RPM :!:

so this is why I do fight with my "Maschine" to get 6 uF Capacity loadet without burning the Gremlins and Bugs and others.

shure, - spark duration is not all that counts, - spark Voltage ( to get it jumping ) is a other thing in the game. there in the CDI is about double then the Standard BSA ore say inductive System.
and also the demandet spark duration to satisfying the corresponding Revs is a other point I will come back to it on a other day....

so far for tonight,
beat <212

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby skippy » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:11 pm

I get what you mean Beat, but it was the voltage generation cct with the 2 mosfets that i thought about. With 2 mosfets to share the load and maybe produce more power for your 6uf caps
keep up the good work.
doug

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:28 pm

hi skyp,
yeas,
skippy wrote:the voltage generation cct with the 2 mosfets that i thought about

this part dos not look to bad,- just the Bug IR2155 is making me a bit shy, let say the input Voltage range it is needing.
the Datasheet says: 10 to 20 Volts is required to get it running, ( once running, it can drop to 7.7 MINIMUM !) - I do surch a solution in the range of 5 to 7 Volt and still starting and running properly.
<982
beat

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby Barry Creary » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:37 pm

Hi beat
I just read about a ignition that retains the points in Classic Bike Guide and thought of you its Rooster Booster www.roosterignitions.com may be it will help with your project :?: good luck beat :thumb

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby minetymenace » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:59 pm

Have a look at the IR2302PBF beat, it has min supply = 5V
Last edited by minetymenace on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: added min supply voltage

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:06 pm

thanks guys for the nice inputs.
but the savest dead for a project is to change the target you wantd to reach several times on the way to..... :oops:

so I am keeping my nose down on the floor and fallowing the trace I have started, evan if it is leading me in to the desert.... :uhu
BTW, designet two new layouts for the make of the signal and the 400 Volts:
DSCN0495.jpg
The Signal , now not at 12 Volts, no, reduced to 5 Volts level

and the 400Volts maschine:
DSCN0496.jpg
not using one MOSFET to drive the Potcore Travo, - using two Transistores in line to wiggle the Travo...

surching this way for a fast switched Signal ( 24kHz ) by 12 Volts and peacks up to 10 Amps !
beat <216

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby Mark Cook » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:09 pm

The very first CDI used a push pull oscillator

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby skippy » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:43 pm

It was the slow switching of the transistors that was the problem with the first units.
10 amps will give the power as long as the potcore does not become a pot roast.
keep up the good work
doug

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby minetymenace » Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:00 am

beat, what is the value of R4? In order to switch off fast, it may be necessary to suck the charge out of the gate (capacitance) rather than let it trickle away through R4.
Mark wrote:Push/pull


You might also take into consideration the capacitance between all the terminals of the FET, as the frequency goes up, impedance comes down.

Likewise, is your 5v 24kHz signal supplied from an open collector source hooked up to the supply via a current limiting resisto? If not you need to to drag/trickle the charge out of the first FET too.

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:53 pm

hi minety,
minetymenace wrote:Likewise, is your 5v 24kHz signal supplied from an open collector source hooked up to the supply via a current limiting resisto? If not you need to to drag/trickle the charge out of the first FET too.

can you repeat this in english please :shock: :?: :?:

about the Resistores: I am working them out right now, - this is a painfull process for me, as calculating never was my strongest :oops: :oops: .... ( lucky I do have a son to ask him what I am thinking about.... :lol: )

about the 10 Amps: it is the very first switching on of the ignition when all caps are empty, so the potcore T1 is limiting the Amps by the primary windings and the NOT numbered Resistore in the prime line.
this resistore I would like to keep away ore have it very low, let say by 1 ore 1.5 Ohm only.
BTW, the primary winding itself is near on NO resistence, so I guess this is killing my MOSFETs by the docent!
the MOSFETs are very sensitive about high switching current and NOT corresponding current on the GATE.
until now ( all the last circuits ), Gate current was limited to 0.2 Amps ( 200 mAmps ) by the NE555 bug providing the 24 KHz signal . guess the fault was as 200 mAmps are not able to drive the 10 Amps ore more the T1 is sucking at the very first beginning of the wiggle.

hope in a day ore two I will get it....
beat <216

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:55 pm

hi minety,
BTW, R4 is a pulldown in the value of 1 000 Ohm only.

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby beat » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:26 pm

Hmmm, took a day of,- was snowboarding agayn, -- fell on my nose and hurt my leg. <218
but still able to mess around with this stuff... :lol:

my problem is the voltage for the Base of the Transistore MJE 13009, the second one.
the Datasheet say : MAX 9 Volts.
but as the first Transistore switches the 12 Volt surce , ( wich can be from 6 to 15 Volts somewhere in reality ) I may need to make a Volt devider by Resistores, this is what R2 and R3 are fore.
minety , any Values you can advice ??
beat <017 <017

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Re: It sparks by CDI

Postby minetymenace » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:16 am

MOSFETs are voltage controlled devices, so you need to apply a VOLTAGE to the gate (as oppoesed to current in a normal bipolar transistor). As the gate can be considered as a capacitor, the device will not switch off untill you remove the charge, if this charge bleeds away slowly (through a resistor say) you may not be able to get the frequency you need, so you might need to connect the gate to ground by another FET. If you look at the driver (IR2302PBF ) datasheet, you will see that the output of the chip has two FETS,
FET Drriver.png
one connected to ground, one to the supply rail, therefore the output of this chip will be able to apply a voltage to the gate of your final device (and turn it on) and then connect the gate to ground (to drag the charge out of the gate and turn the device off).

Skippy's circuit shows a centre tapped transformer, the IR2302PBF (IR2155) is a dual o/p devices, and is showing the driver output connected to the gate of the power device via a 10ohm resistor. You should be able to use this circuit as it is to drive the two halves of the primary with two (power) FETS (as per Skippy's diagram). This circuit has the advantage of forcing the current in the coil one way then the other, not just on and off (your off is to turn off the supply and let the voltage decay on its own, if you use the centre taps and the dual driver, you are forcing a turn off and a flow of current in the opposite direction). Using your existing coil you should be able to use your driver via a 10ohm resistor straight onto the gate of your FET (that is what it is for).

Adding the coil might introduce some complex results (which are destroying your FETS), so I would swap the coil for a 2 ohm resistor and get the driver and FET working first. As for variable supply voltages, don't worry about that yet, one thing at a time!!

If you want a FET which will handle 600A, just let me know!! Like to see you blow that sucker up!! Don't forget that they are Voltage devices and can be destroyed by over voltage when handeling (eg static)


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