B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

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B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:08 pm

Gentlemen & Ladies
I was holding off posting my Bonneville project, hoping to start off with a finished product. I have, however, discovered a forum specifically for Land Speed Record Bikes that has "Build Diaries" section. That seems to be the best place to post my entire diary, but I would like to share this with you. I started my quest for Land Speed Record in 2009 when I took my B50 Roadracer to Bonneville and managed a respectable 108 mph. In fact, the record for Modified Production Pushrod Gas class in AMA prior to the 2009 meet was 107mph. At that same meet, a Mr. Tim O'Brien set a new record of 113mph on a Triumph. It was then I decided to pursue such a record using the B50 motor.

In 2010, I returned with a few modifications, including 3" longer swingarm, 17" wheels, and some motor mods. The stars weren't aligned properly, and so the newly installed motor (picked up, installed, and drove up the road and back once before loading it in the trailer) wasn't sorted out completely, and ignition and carb issues held speed down to 106mph. I know this new motor will perform, so I decided to build a proper frame for the new bike to return in 2011. I will show you a few photos here, but the majority of the build will be chronicled at http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.p ... 341.0.html
DSC02805.jpg
2009 rendition
DSC03604.jpg
2010 version with 17" wheels
DSC04019.jpg
Starting point
DSC04086.jpg
...add the motor
DSC04118.jpg
...add tubing
DSC04134.jpg
... add more tubes
DSC04151.jpg
... triple clamps in the living room!
DSC04180.jpg
Welded by a neighbor; certified airframe welder
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:11 pm

I have resumed posting on the landracing.com site. I am trying to get the bike finished for a run in Caribou, Maine at Loring AFB - - 1-1/2 mile run plus a 1 mile shut down. Here are a few of the latest photos.
New head vs.jpg
Ed Valiket's 135 CFM intake port
scraper lower.jpg
New flywheels are smaller than orginals, so I fabricated a new scraper.
crank pinion 109.jpg
With 5 possible pinion positions, a B25 camwheel with 3 possible positions, I ended up with this combination for 109 degrees valve centers.
new megaphone side view.jpg
Exhaust tuned for 7000 to 8500 RPM.
timing disc installed.jpg
Without a rotor, new timing disc was needed.
new turn out side view 2.jpg
For maximum RPM's only, I may try this short turn tip instead of Megaphone.
oil lines, shift linkage.jpg
Oil tank and oil lines, complete except for tee off to rockers for lack of a proper fitting.
I still have painting, adding an air fuel ratio gauge, new head bearing holders (built with aluminum bushings only), throttle linkage and fuel lines to add, not to mention a seat. Only 2 weeks til Loring.
Tom
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby minetymenace » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:25 pm

Nice one, not sure about the oil scraper...good luck.
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby Mark Cook » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:10 pm

Really nice read, but what a shame you didn't post it with Rickard step by step. I'm sure you'd have got a lot more constructive comments.

We're stuffed as our test strip (M4) is over policed now. You can't even do test runs at 3 in the morning lol.

Cherhill straight isn't safe as some plonker is likely to pull out on you if the camera man dosen't get you first.

Seriously, good on you and a big well done.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby gunnag » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:31 pm

Brilliant project good luck :)

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:57 pm

Thanks for the complements, guys. I didn't post the entire diary on this forum because until I got the motor parts, it was sort not really a B50. In any case, I will keep you posted as time allows.
Tom
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:38 pm

Hey Minetymenace,
I'm not sure about the oil scraper, either. Apparently somebody at BSA thought they were a good idea, as well as others, so be it. Actually, I'm not sure about 92mm x 75mm, 42 mm flatslide, re-ratioed rocker arms, and wide open throttle for 2 miles at 8500 RPM either, for that matter. Trouble with these top speed projects is, you don't get another chance very often. Somebody said "Just keep tuning it up til it breaks, then tune it down!" It's all or nothing!
Tom
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:28 pm

Painting 101!!

Painting is not what it used to be. First off, try and buy an economical easy-to-use primer, for example. Canada has succumbed to the forces of the Universe and banned the use of high VOC's. So they have removed all the lacquer based paints, as we know them. "Just use these aerosol cans of metal etch primer" said one. So I did, and after $30 worth I had my frame done, and I wasn't half finished. So I went looking and I found one supplier with a quart of old stock lacquer based primer, but he only had thinner in 5 gallon containers. But another supplier had a gallon of thinner. Bingo!--or so I thought. But when I mixed the two, I got grey stuff with white flecks. So most of my primered items had white specs, sort of like that rock guard paint you use in trunks. I then got some strainers and got rid of the white specs for the rest of the items-- how important could those white specs be?

Then there's the finish paint. You can buy Rustoleum mineral spirit based paints for $11 a qt. on sale, but how impervious are they to gas and oil? So I bit the bullet and went back to my supplier. Each quart of color cost $50, plus a gallon of thinner for another $50, and some hardener for $20, and a new paint gun for $50, and a filter -regulator, and $250 later, I was ready to paint.

Now if you're going to do a professional job, there are some other requirements. You will need a clean, well ventilated work space, a professional paint gun, a way of supporting your work, preferably a ventilated suit with a separate breathing air supply, and of course, a helper who perhaps might actually know how to paint. I had none of the above. And you will have to watch out for dust in the air, things to trip over, wind, insects, and Murphy's Laws. I had all of these things nicely covered.

But to make a long story short, I managed, in spite of the odds. Now I take great pride in being a Jack of All Trades, and a Master of None. So I may have a few runs, a few spots that didn't quite get good coverage, and a little orange peel finish. But I've got a shiny black frame and some yellow parts to dress it up.

I also have floors, lawn furniture, skis, canoe, an old Ossa, and many other items that were not supposed to be, black and yellow dotted with both.
I rationalize this by telling my wife that these items needed to be painted anyway, so it's OK, although I'm not really sure about the Ossa. And my black fenders were not quite far enough away, so now they have little flecks of yellow on them - - look sort of like gold flecks.
You couldn't have gotten this effect by design, so maybe it's OK, too. And the big bonus is the big deer fly that's stuck to the front of the headstock. It's sort of reminds me of the fly that got cast into the Ducati gas tank of Mike Hailwood's bike. That didn't slow him down, did it? So maybe it's my good luck charm!

Tom Borcherdt
frame in the grey 2.jpg
Frame in the grey
frame in the black 2.jpg
Frame in the black
rear tailpiece 2.jpg
Rear Tailpiece
gas tank 2.jpg
Gas tank - fits behind the rider
oil tank 3.jpg
Oil tank
speckled fender 3.jpg
Speckled fenders - not as designed!
fly in the ointment 3.jpg
Fly in the ointment - my good luck charm?
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby Ian Hingley » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:36 pm

Great story!

Glad you have days like me, too!

Ian
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby minetymenace » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:51 pm

Speckeled mudguards, some people would pay good money for that finish....it all looks great to me.
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby steve m » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:08 am

looks fine too me, Tom.
koncretekid wrote:and $250 later, I was ready to paint.

how many dollars do you put on the feeling you get, when you stand back and look at it, knowing you did it yourself -speckles and all? :thumb :thumb

steve

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby beat » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:49 pm

:lol: <200 :ok

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:18 am

steve m wrote:looks fine too me, Tom.
koncretekid wrote:and $250 later, I was ready to paint.

how many dollars do you put on the feeling you get, when you stand back and look at it, knowing you did it yourself -speckles and all? :thumb :thumb

steve


Steve,
A million bucks!
Tom
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:03 am

I started reassembling the bonneville bike yesterday, then as usually happens, decided to take the motor apart and send the piston off for ceramic coating, One day turn around, but I fear I won't see it back until Monday. That gives me a couple of days to put it back together and see if it runs before going to Loring for its real test. That's better than last year - I picked up the new bottom end and piston from Ed V. on a Wednesday, drove on to Colorado, tore down the road race motor, installed the new parts, got it running on Sunday afternoon, loaded it up and got to Bonneville that night. Broke it in on the salt flats on Tuesday (rained on Monday.)

The good news is that, unlike your average B50, I can remove the rocker box, head, and cylinder in about a half hour without even taking the motor out. Photo will be self explanatory. Seat and chin rest will get done this week, so I won't have to sit (lay down, actually) on this taped up prototype.

Also shown is cockpit view. Center bolt is probably not even needed because of the stiffness of the triple clamps, but it doesn't bother my view, in any case (I might end up a little cross-eyed!)

If I run with the tailpiece, I will have to run in the "partially streamlined" class. I may run in both "open" without the tailpiece, and in "partially streamlined," as the record is non-existent at Loring, and about the same speed at Bonneville.
Left side tailpiece.jpg
Left side with tailpiece
view.jpg
cockpit view
unfinished seat.jpg
Left side showing unfinished seat
top view.jpg
Top view of motor
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby Bill » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:22 am

HI there, just looking at the pics, is the steering stem a bit of screwed rod?
If so will that hold up at high speed.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:12 am

Bill,
that's right, 3/8" threaded rod, and I'll be machining off most of the threads If I get time. I got the idea when rebuilding an old American Eagle 250 motorcross bike with REH forks - - That's all it had to tie the triple clamps together. Apparently if your triple clamps are strong and have sufficient grip on the fork tubes, the center bolt just needs to keep a little tension in the bearings. In any case, I won't be turning any corners at speed, so almost all the vertical and half of the horizontal forces are carried by the lower clamp. The top clamp just have to keep things aligned. Or, so I hope!
Tom
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby beat » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:11 pm

hi tom,
what Air / Fuel Ratio mesuring are you usuing ? ( Brand ? )
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby steve m » Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:37 pm

Tom,
your call, i know, but streamlined or not that exhaust tip worries me a bit. i think i would have it turned in to the underneath of the bike, or not at all. i realize that we are not talking super high speed but the less disturbance to the boundary layer the better. IMHO. it might get you that 1/4 mph that you could end up needing.
sure lookin' good. :thumb :thumb

steve

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:18 am

beat wrote:hi tom,
what Air / Fuel Ratio mesuring are you usuing ? ( Brand ? )
beat <201

Beat,
It's a Koso, which is sold by a Canadian company, which happened to be mentioned by one source. However, it has only a two wire sensor, so I think it is not heated. Also instructions advised me to "dig a hole" in the exhaust pipe. Obviously someone doesn't proof read their literature and that just bothers me when sellers do not pay attention to the details. I also have the problem that at Loring, Maine, they are only selling leaded gas, and I don't even have any unleaded gas (over 100 octane) to try, so the sensor will have to be removed most of the time, or it will get fouled up.

steve m wrote:Tom,
your call, i know, but streamlined or not that exhaust tip worries me a bit. i think i would have it turned in to the underneath of the bike, or not at all. i realize that we are not talking super high speed but the less disturbance to the boundary layer the better. IMHO. it might get you that 1/4 mph that you could end up needing.
sure lookin' good. :thumb :thumb

steve


Rules at Bonneville state that the exhaust must be directed away from the rider and the salt. I'm not even sure if they will allow this megaphone discharging directly back. I have a back-up tailpiece which is simply a turn-out to the side, if required.

Last year I had a partial piston pin seizure that I detected in the tear down, after 7 high speed runs. So I decided at the last minute to get my piston ceramic coated. Luckily found a manufacturer in the Province (Nova Scotia), sent it off on Wednesday, and drove the 6 hour round trip to retrieve it yesterday. I have also decided not to run the re-ratioed rocker arms at Loring because I've made several other changes to the motor and I'll be running at close to sea level where I should have more HP anyway. I would hate to scramble the valve gear at 8500 RPM before I even get to Bonneville! In any case, I can change the rocker arms in about an hour, so it'll be easier to put in the "trick" ones later if I want to.
fuel lines and valve installed.jpg
fuel lines installed with fire-sleeve and filter
ceramic coated piston.jpg
ceramic coated piston dome
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby steve m » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:50 am

Mmm, nice.
high comp JE?
:cool: :cool: :thumb :thumb

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby beat » Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:25 pm

thanks Tom,
- this fire fighting sleve - I hope, Ian Hingley is noting it..... di`d you Ian :?: :?:

-Ian - if you like the color and I know the source for it, I will send you some for Chrismas - ore beter for Eastern????
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby johnmead » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:00 pm

For the topend oil feed I use a brass fitting screwed into the front of the inner timing cover where the oil pressure switch goes. It is a restrictor type with a 1/16" (.0625) hole. I then run a line up to the rockerbox oil manifold. This gets oil under pressure to the topend. I use this on street and race B44 and B50 motors.

John Mead

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby minetymenace » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:13 pm

I don' t know about these things, but this bike looks quite heavy, I know it is all about top speed, and not acceleration, but would a lighter bike be faster? Or do you have it up to speed before your start the measured mile?
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby Ian Hingley » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:38 pm

beat wrote:thanks Tom,
- this fire fighting sleve - I hope, Ian Hingley is noting it..... di`d you Ian :?: :?:

-Ian - if you like the color and I know the source for it, I will send you some for Chrismas - ore beter for Eastern????
beat :uhu


You're not going to let me forget this one, are you beat? b44icon

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby HPbyStan » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:30 pm

minetymenace wrote:I don' t know about these things, but this bike looks quite heavy, I know it is all about top speed, and not acceleration, but would a lighter bike be faster? Or do you have it up to speed before your start the measured mile?

Gerry, I think you have to go wide open farther than some B50s last just to get TO the timing traps.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby minetymenace » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:00 pm

I do hope koncretekid posts the video of the whole run..... <216
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby beat » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:09 pm

Ian Hingley wrote:You're not going to let me forget this one, are you beat?

this happening would not let me sleep quiet as long as I did not know where was the reason for it and what I have done agains it...
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:55 am

johnmead wrote:For the topend oil feed I use a brass fitting screwed into the front of the inner timing cover where the oil pressure switch goes. It is a restrictor type with a 1/16" (.0625) hole. I then run a line up to the rockerbox oil manifold. This gets oil under pressure to the topend. I use this on street and race B44 and B50 motors.

John Mead

Yes, John, that's what I do, except in this case I've put a Tee fitting with one side going to the oil pressure gauge, as I'm running plain bearing bottom end. As for the restrictor in the line, it seems that HPStan agrees, but Mark and Ed V. have said it is not necessary to add the restrictor. I guess if I can maintain oil pressure, I'll be OK.

minetymenace wrote:I don' t know about these things, but this bike looks quite heavy, I know it is all about top speed, and not acceleration, but would a lighter bike be faster? Or do you have it up to speed before your start the measured mile?


Minety, I haven't weighed the bike yet, but the frame weighs 50 lbs, which of course includes what would be the swing arm and rear suspension (none). Weight is not an issue. At Bonneville, there is a 2 mile run up to the first timing tower, then a 1 mile timed run. At Loring, there is 1-1/2 mile run up to the traps, then an immediate shut-down (like the traps at a drag strip.) I can get to top speed in about 1/2 mile.
steve m wrote:Mmm, nice.
high comp JE?
:cool: :cool: :thumb :thumb

Yes, about 11.7 to 1 JE.

Today and tomorrow to finish up, load up on Wednesday, head out Thurdsday morning.
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby Mark Cook » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:07 am

The unrestricted rocker feed is only for roller big ends Tom. With your overbored B25 I'd restrict it to be sure the shells don't stick to the pin.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby rhino » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:41 pm

And the best method of restriction is???

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby Mark Cook » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:03 pm

If your using one of our braided rocker feed kits Simon, just solder the inside of the banjo bolt. It will be easy to drill through with a 1/16" jobber drill bit.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby rhino » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:07 pm

Doh!

I don't have any jobber drill bits, only cobalt ones, bugger >44

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:30 am

Mark and others,
I just read your post and will try to put a restrictor in there somewhere, maybe solder up one of the 1/8" pipe fittings and re-drill with a Harbor Freight (read:poor quality Chinese) drill bit.

Meanwhile, I picked up some 441 rockers, which have the same part number in the book, but look a bit different. I hope they're as strong. First photo is comparing stock 441 rocker with modified (re-ratioed) B50. I decided to lighten the stock ones up for the first few runs and do the modified ones later. Second picture shows what they look like now that I have removed a bit of excess metal. I wish I had more time to polish out all the little sanding marks, but have to finish the rest of the details first.

Third picture is of the mostly finished bike. Got it started and it runs OK but will need tuning -- jets and timing. But, I've got a bad oil leak from the right side covers which means a tear-down tomorrow. Also have to get a couple number plates in order to run in the open class. Lots of time-- two whole days.

Tom
rockers 441 vs Eds 2.jpg
stock 441 (I think) rocker vs. unfinished re-ratioed one
441 rocker after 2.jpg
Rocker after removing excess metal
finished left side 2.jpg
Mostly finished left side
finshed right side 2.jpg
Right side -- check the oil puddle!
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby steve m » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:28 am

good luck, Tom.
hope it all goes well. :thumb :thumb

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby beat » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:56 pm

hi Tom,
very interesting Topic, good pictures !
<200 <200 <200
wonder where the oil is coming from ?
good luck,
beat

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby HPbyStan » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:43 pm

beat wrote:hi Tom,
very interesting Topic, good pictures !
<200 <200 <200
wonder where the oil is coming from ?
good luck,
beat

Mid East would be a good guess Beat.

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Ian Hingley
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby Ian Hingley » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:26 pm

You're so sharp you must cut yourself Stan!

Ian
66 BSA Victor Enduro, 72 BSA Lightning, 62 BSA B40 trials, 89 H*nda Bros 650, 96 Aprilia Moto 6.5, 2000 Aprilia Moto 6.5

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:59 pm

Well actually, Beat, the oil on the ground was part of the oil I put into it, which only shows that I probably didn't do a good job of mating the gasket surfaces. Incidentally, with all the talk about which sealant to use on your cases and covers, I don't think anybody bothered to mention that it doesn't make all that much difference, as long as you have mated the surfaces by either sanding against a plate of glass with fine sandpaper, or using a long flat lathe file using a "draw file" technique. I obviously didn't take my own advice. Anyway, tore it apart, put it back together, and I'm loading up for Loring today; leave tomorrow morning.

Here is a link to first video, after much fussing about getting the oil pump primed. It sort of idles, but will take some tuning to get things right.

BSA B50 Bonneville Bike First Start
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L67O42j0QSo
life's uncertain - go fast now

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby minetymenace » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:04 pm

Great video, is that with the megaphone exhaust? I sounds great. :thumb
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby gunnag » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:30 pm

Seems to run and idle pretty good, though I can hear some stuttering at higher revs, what carb are you using?


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