B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:39 pm

MM,
It was my intention to copy Tom Mellor's fairing, but it is in Vancouver, BC, and I am in Nova Scotia, about 3500 miles away. Tom Mellor is a retired aircraft engineer. So I guess I am on my own.
Tom

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:53 pm

MM.
I meant to ask you about your explanation of the oil pump to Carlos. You insinuate that the pressure side of the pump will pump X litres per second, and that the scavenge side will also pump X litres per second. I haven't taken one apart since I screwed up an A65 pump (it wouldn't rotate after I cleaned it up and glass sanded the cover plate!), but I thought the scavenge side had a higher capacity than the feed side. Otherwise, a minor amount of wear on the scavenge side would always result in wet sumping. That problem would be compounded with the B25 pump if the feed side pumps more than the scavenge side.
Tom

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby kommando » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:02 pm

Scavange side is larger than the feedside on a B25 and should flow more if everything else were equal even on a B50. But its not equal, return has to pump against gravity, feed is with gravity and the return wears quicker as it picks the crap up and even without a return filter the tank settles out the crap before the feedside, which is why tanks need cleaning. That said some have put a B25 pump in a B44 or B50 and had no issues.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:28 pm

Sorry I have been lax about posting progress on the Bonneville Salt Racer on this forum, but I have kept the Landspeed Racing forum up to date if you want to see the rest of the build at http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.p ... 1.165.html

I just got back from Loring, Maine with Good News and Bad News! The bad news is that the screws behind the outboard bearing plate backed out, grabbed the clutch, stripped all the teeth off the clutch wheel, ripped out all six screws, and spit the primary chain out thru the cases, taking part of the cases with it. I also see that the exhaust valve hit the piston and jammed the follower up into the case where it is now stuck, and blew the end off the exhaust pushrod. I don't yet know if the valve is bent or what is jamming the follower in the up position.

I'm open to suggestions on how best to restore the broken case and stripped screw holes.

I could use some of Stan's re-welding skills right about now. Four weeks till Bonneville, with relatives coming for two of those weeks.

The good news is the the crank still turns, the piston still goes up and down, and we went 136.7 mph for a new record!

Tom
Fairing with decals.jpg
Fairing showing decals
Clutch after blown primary.jpg
Clutch after blown primary
Primary case and stripped clutch.jpg
Primary case and stripped clutch
Stripped outboard screws.jpg
Stripped outboard screws

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby Mark Cook » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:57 pm

Shame about the mess, but an easy fix in the uk. They say they go their best before they go bang!

Mark

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:17 pm

Mark Cook wrote:Shame about the mess, but an easy fix in the uk. They say they go their best before they go bang!

Mark


Yes, probably an easy fix at Ed's or Stan's place on this side of the pond, but I'm a couple thousand miles from either one!

BTW, just to add insult to injury, I threw my back out unloading the trailer, and now I can't even get out of this damn chair :mad: !

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby Mark Cook » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:38 am

Sorry to hear about the back, I know what a pain they can be. If when asking for a repair on your side of the water you get a rude answer, pop it in the post and I'll sort it. Just remember to mark it "Temporary Export" or the buggers will charge me duty to receive it.

Mark

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby gunnag » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:40 pm

My god 136.7mph, thats way faster than I could ever imagine a unit single could go, so you must be doing something right and have some balls to do it !

The maximum speed I ever achieved on a unit single was about 85mph, down hill, with the wind behind me, even then I was terrified the engine would explode or suffer from some kind of mechanical mayhem. :shock: :shock: :shock:

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby minetymenace » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:35 pm

Wow, so for those of us without a tacho, red-line in top should be marked ay 135mph! What revs were you pulling at that speed?

Sorry to hear about your back, there are as many solutions for bad backs as there are backs, but there are solutions, I hope you find one that works for you and wish you a speedy recovery.

Only invite the relatives who have chiropractor and/or welding skills.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby SteveS » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:26 pm

Tom

136.7 mph!

That is a colossal speed – you should get a medal for that! :thumb

Like Gerry I would be very interested to know what sort of revs you were pulling at that speed

Regards Steve

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby Norman_John » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:41 pm

Its very impressive considering that my B44 would not go that fast if I threw it out of an airoplane!

<069 !!! Heeeehhhhaaaarrrr

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby b50root » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:29 pm

218,87 Km/h in the modern world.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby steve m » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:59 am

b50root wrote:218,87 Km/h in the modern world.
:laugh :laugh :laugh
geat job Tom, both on the build and the result (well....the good part of the result anyway :smile: those bloody screws :cry: ).
i read a comment on britbike but the guy only mentioned "another Tom with a B50", i knew it was you. so i'm glad you posted here also glad you posted that link again. i will work my way through all of those pages - the world of LSR is very interesting.
it would be good to take a B50 over to Lake Gardiner in South Australia ( <201 that's another thing on the list).
hope you get it sorted in time for Bonneville.

steve
PS.off topic but, nice pic that Dave Rutherford posted, of Ted Hubbard, another significant name in BSA (+B50) racing history. sadly he wasn't with us to see Don Jagger win the sportsman 500 series in 2006.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:28 am

When I crossed the timing lights at the mile and a half, I saw 8500 RPM's. Keep in mind that this motor has a 75 mm stroked 250 crankshaft with plain bearing lower rod bearing and a B25SS oil pump. I never saw less than 25 psi oil pressure, even when idling. Mostly the oil pressure was over 45 psi, but then I was pretty busy watching where I was going.

Incidentally, I was at probably 8000 RPM's and wide open throttle when the chain broke. I have no idea what the motor revved to at that point, but I do have a bent exhaust valve, tappet, and pushrod. I opened up the motor and checked the plain bearing and it looks good.

Tom

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby kommando » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:39 am

I opened up the motor and checked the plain bearing and it looks good.


Good to hear some good news, over and above getting the new record, on the engine front, at least that one seems put to bed.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby gunnag » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:41 pm

Any idea how much bhp & torque you are generating with your setup?

I guess youre more or less at the limit of what could be achieved on a unit single without nitro/super charging etc.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby Ed V » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:44 pm

I just received an email from Mr Borcherdt and he now owns a record at the Bonneville salt flats at 134 mph, he first set it at 133 mph then improved it to 134mph. He actually did 137 mph on one run but could not make it the record
Congratulations Tom and crew

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby Mark Cook » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:54 am

Fantastic, sounds like the repair job held up then. :grin:

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby vetterlatethanever » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:37 pm

brilliant achievement well done :thumb

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby beat » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:46 pm

Ed V wrote:he now owns a record

:thumb :thumb <038 <038

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby minetymenace » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:44 pm

<216 <215

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby steve m » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:23 am

that's great news for Tom., thanks Ed.
big well done to you Tom :thumb :thumb
What sort of speeds do we think Tom's bike could get at sea level, anyone got any idea :?:
Bonneville salt flats' altitude is approx 4000ft (1200m).

steve

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby skippy » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:12 am

steve m wrote:that's great news for Tom., thanks Ed.
big well done to you Tom :thumb :thumb
What sort of speeds do we think Tom's bike could get at sea level, anyone got any idea :?:
Bonneville salt flats' altitude is approx 4000ft (1200m).

steve

Thiner air less wind resistance or thicker air more power.
doug

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby beat » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:35 pm

skippy wrote:Thiner air less wind resistance

corectly adjusted and finetuned with a lambda sensor - it will be faster highly up :!: :!:
( just look at the speed the satelites and Moon rockets reaches :ban )
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby HPbyStan » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:38 pm

HaHa, I'd go with the good air and find a smaller rider.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby beat » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:51 pm

you may use a Monky, like in the past.
I keep some performed Guinea Pigs....
<212

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby ringding » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:46 pm

What a cool project and an amazing achievement!

:shock: :cool:

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby steve m » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:01 pm

my bet is Tom would have cracked the 140mph if he would have been on the beach.

steve

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby skippy » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:19 pm

He will have to come to lake eyre in Aussie it is below sea level he should get 141mph <201 :laugh

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:26 am

Thanks for all the kind replies. I spent the weekend after Bonneville at Miller Raceway in Tooele, Utah watching some great vintage roadracing Unfortunately, mine is broken, but I don't think I could have fit it in the trailer with the new streamlining bodywork, anyway. Came back to Colorado to some more mundane problems, like 4 house guests and a refrigerator that decided to go south for the winter.

The Salt Flats are quite a challenge, to put a return run together with a down run. My days went like this:
1st downrun: blubbering on over jetted carb; 120 mph
2nd downrun: good at 129 mph
1st return run: carburetor loosened up and nearly fell off
3rd downrun: good at 131 mph
return run: blazing at 137 thru the kilometer, but 16 mph side wind blew me off course and I hit the flags at the end of the mile
4th downrun: wouldn't shift into 4th gear; 118 mph in 3rd
5th downrun: good at 131
return run: good at 135 for average of 133 mph (record)
6th downrun: good at 130.3
return run: great at 137.7, for an average of 134 (new record)

The B50 ran like a top. It was so consistent, the return and down runs only different because of tail or head winds. I saw 8800 rpms on one run, just before I geared down to save the motor. It went just as fast.

I also got to me Alan Cathcart, and Jason DiSalvo, who rode the hopped up Rocket Three to 172 mph!

I'll have to get some ideas from you guys on what to do next year. Nitrous Oxide? Turbocharge? Add long stroke crank and run in the 650 class?

Following are a few photos. You can see where I hit the flagstand.
Me and Ed at Salt Flats 2012.jpg
Pit Crew and me
flagstand at Bonneville 2012.jpg
Tire marks past the flagstand and timer
Front of fairing contact area.jpg
Front of Fairing after contact

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby steve m » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:22 am

Tom,
thanks for the report and the pics. must get a bit hairy out there in a cross-wind with a full fairing? i'm glad the bike held together for you. is Loring your next LSR meeting? i guess there are a lot of places in the world to run LSR but Bonneville, well, that's definitely Numero Uno. but, if you want to go faster for no more effort (but more money :( ) you will have to come-on-down to Lake Gairdner in South Australia(140m/120ft ASL).
they haven't got the Miller results up yet. doesn't seem to be any B50's racing any more and what's happened to Tim Joyce?

steve

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:39 pm

Steve,
I never got a chance to meet Tim Joyce, but neither he nor the Lighthouses (Ken and Rod) were there. B50's have to run in Sportsman as they are considered "too new" to run in any of the Premier/Grand Prix or even the Classic 60's - - they wouldn't want a B50 to beat an old Matchless G50 or even a Goldstar. Sportsman is dominated by the very fast H*nda Boys, now. Rod Lighthouse is capable of beating them on his B50, but I am not. I seem to do better in a straight line!

I could go back to Bonneville October 3rd for the World Finals. But don't think that would get a very good reception from my better half, what with it costing about a $1000 with registration,gas and room. I would be able to run the full tailpiece because the event is SCTA sanctioned. And I could possibly build a cool air induction system to take advantage of the 137 mph "ram air" effect (or possibly, 140 mph). But, alas, I dream on.....
Tom

P.S. Thought you would enjoy a photo of the pieces of the flagpole I hit. These ended up in my cooling system, and in my fairing as they blew thru the back of the cooling system. Also, 4 of my windshield mounting screws (nylon) broke off but the shield held because of the 200 mph duct tape!
Attachments
Remains of flagpole.jpg
Remains of the PVC flagpole in my fairing

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby beat » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:55 pm

koncretekid wrote:I'll have to get some ideas from you guys on what to do next year.

hi Tom,
I would vote for the Target of 140 miles / H savely.

what abouth a proper monitoring of the A/ F Ratio with probably a manualy adjusting jet wheilst the run to get it realy spot on for the max output ?
this just as a ( maybe ) silly idea :oops:
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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby baz » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:40 pm

this is one of the best posts i have read brilliant work truly amazing ,,,,,,,baz

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:57 pm

baz wrote:this is one of the best posts i have read brilliant work truly amazing ,,,,,,,baz


Thanks, Baz. This kind of complement is what makes posting of my information so rewarding!

Motor rebuild is now in progress, as well as cool air induction system.

First photo shows ease of removal of motor from frame. Remove lefthand motormounts which leaves bottom bolt requiring lowering of fairing to remove. Also shown is the "Beat" suggested outboard bearing mounting plate hold down screws, complete with lockwire still in place. No more screws backing out here!

Also shown is piston, head, and rod bearings, all of which look usable, but I am going to install new rod bearing.

The new 20 tooth sprocket shown is not available for the B50 motor, but this one is machined down from an A65 BSA (650 twin) motor, and just fits thru the cases. I had to clearance the cases ahead of the chain to allow the use of this larger sprocket. This sprocket will get me over 140 mph with the rear sprockets I have.
motor in frame ready to remove.jpg
Piston after Bonneville 2012.jpg
Rod bearings after Bonneville 2012.jpg
Cylinder head after Bonneville 2012.jpg
20 tooth sprocket fit.jpg
clearance for 20 tooth sprocket.jpg

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby beat » Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:31 pm

hi tom,
koncretekid wrote:This sprocket will get me over 140 mph with the rear sprockets I have.

theoreticaly - yes, - but dos the engine spend the HP to reach the RPM`s ??

some things it stil wonders me:
- what fuel do you are using exactly ? - and -
- what is the theoreticaly best mixture for highest output of this fuel ? - and -
- how do you controlling exactly this mixture by the RPM`s you are needing for the speed of 140 mph ??

( if I ask boring Questions, - just let me know :oops: )
beat

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby steve m » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:13 am

beat wrote:what fuel do you are using exactly ?

i just came to this thread to ask the same question :smile:

steve

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby koncretekid » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:53 am

beat wrote:hi tom,
koncretekid wrote:This sprocket will get me over 140 mph with the rear sprockets I have.

theoreticaly - yes, - but dos the engine spend the HP to reach the RPM`s ??

some things it stil wonders me:
- what fuel do you are using exactly ? - and -
- what is the theoreticaly best mixture for highest output of this fuel ? - and -
- how do you controlling exactly this mixture by the RPM`s you are needing for the speed of 140 mph ??

( if I ask boring Questions, - just let me know :oops: )
beat


Not at all boring; we love your questions and respect all of your answers. At landracing events, we must use the gasoline provided by the event.
-There are a few different ones offered, but I am using 110 octane leaded racing gas.If I want to I can use methanol or even nitrous oxide injected, but that will bump me up into "fuel" class (a future consideration.)
-Best mixture is no different than anywhere else, about 13 to 1 air to fuel. The atmospheric pressure is less at Bonneville (about 12.7 psi, I believe) but the ratio remains the same. I jet down just one size from Loring, Maine, to account for inhaling less air (hence less oxygen) with each intake stroke. On the Dyno today, the mixture was just about perfect at anything above 6000 rpm at wide open throttle. The dyno is in Longmont Colorado which is about 5200 feet elevation compared to 4000 feet at Bonneville, which doesn't seem to make much difference.

I made an air box and connected it with two 2" diameter outlets to 1-1/2" pipes running to the front of the fairing. My first runs were made with the top of the airbox off to eliminate the effect of the air box. I got about 42.5 hp, but interestingly, at a lower rpm than last year's run for no apparent reason. The only things I changed were an additional .015" off the head, an oil squirter, and a slightly longer exhaust pipe by about 4". I then cut 4" off the exhaust, which will require some bodywork for next year. I gained about 1-1/2 hp with that change alone.

I then put the top of the airbox on, and realized a drop in hp of about 5 hp. I then removed the 1-1/2" tubes to the front and ran it with just the 2" elbows out of the airbox, but still got a similar drop of about 4 hp. So I guess I won't be running an airbox. There might be a way to make one work, but I don't have the time and money to try different combinations for now. Maybe Beat can figure out the best airbox for our thumpers.

As far as simulating the air intake at 140 mph, I could not do so. Maybe I would have gained back the hp I lost with the airbox, but the general consensus is that you can only gain about 1 psi pressure at 160 mph.This would be about 3 more hp, but since I lost 4 with the airbox, I can't see it being an advantage.
airbox interior.jpg
close up of airbox
airbox installed open.jpg
airbox in place


As for Gerry's question about broken frame tubes, both of mine have started at a weld. They are not necessarily square with the tube.

Tom

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby beat » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:19 pm

hi tom,
a interesting answer to my boring questions. :grin:
let me think....
<017

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Postby beat » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:38 pm

hi Tom,
I would say:
gaining Hp with a airbox is only possible if:
- you can play with the Inlet Valve Timing , ore,
- you have a Ram Air System.
- there are some more smal ones, - but almost out of our reach....

as for us, " Home Workers " , there is the Velocity Stack still the best solution so far, - as long as you not have the need of a Air Filter....

in your case, I guess the Ram is the right way.
the Airbox looks ok for me, I guess the problem sitts somewhere else.

" somewhere " has two positions I say:
- Ram is bringing more filling
- Ram is changing the Air / Fuel Ratio.

the difficulty of the controlling of this two points is given as you can not simulate the Ram effectnes in your livingroom ( ore you need to send your wive away for some days :oops: )
and evan on a Dyno it is difficult to simulate the real airflow it has wheilst a runn. <201

see, for controlling of this two points by fallowing your "Feelings", I guess your " Feelings " they will missleading you
just to say: they would also missleading me, - so forgive me, it is not a personaly thing I mean :(

but I still say: The Ram is the right way to go.

you just need to monitoring this two Parameters, - to read this Values - and to adjust the Ram AND the A/F R to the Top Settings for your combustion.

so, - monitoring, - reading - adjusting

a lot to do, - a interesting work, - but it is like allways : - Time and Monay.

the first decision you have to do is : will I go this route ore not, as nobody can answer the question: how much HP ore Miles / Hour it will bring.
if you go this way, let us know, we all will give our best to help....
beat <212


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