1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

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1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:08 am

Let me introduce you to my latest project - 1967 B44 Victor that I'm planning to make 100% offroad.

I got it last month from my neighbor!
He tore it apart about 30 years ago because "it was making a noise" and never got around to putting it back together.

It is numbers matching B44EA 661, came with a title and a few spares.
I am documenting this build with photos, so expect to see a bunch in this thread.
I have noticed that a lot of guys here seem to start their rebuilds with the frame but I figured that it
would be best for me to complete the engine first and then work on the rest of the bike later.

I have gotten into the habit of cleaning, repairing and bagging and tagging a part when I remove it.
Dis-assembly takes longer but it makes putting it back together a lot more enjoyable.
IMHO of course, there is always more than one way to skin a cat, it's just what works for me.

It's not much to look at right now, but someday........
Let's get to it!

This is what it looked like when I hauled it home, (the old "motorcycle in a wooden crate trick".):
Image

Image

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Solid Frame and Ceriani Front end:
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Image

The Engine:
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Image

OK, Here's some pics of the tear down:

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Before
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After
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The Top end:

Head:
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Ready to go:
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Cylinder Honed:
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Rockers and rocker box dis-assembled, cleaned and put back together - Top end is DONE:
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Oil Pump (my manual showed thrust washers in the pump, this one has none. Pump marked 11-66):
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Clutch - new cush rubbers on order:
Image

And what I did Today....
Big end had too much slop, so I gotta fix that!

Crankshaft (I think I'm going to polish the con rod even more):
Image

Image

Ever wonder how much "sludge" the trap can hold? This much:
Image

And... here's a glory shot of all of the engine components, just about ready to be re-assembled:
Image

The plan is:
. all new bearings, bushings, seals, gaskets.
. I have a new standard bore piston and rings that are going in it.
. Boyer power box and electronic ignition.
. I'm thinking about using a 32 mm. Amal carb (because I already have one)
. Stock clutch for now but I may do the 5 plate mod.

I have wanted a Thumper dirt bike for some time now, so that is what I am leaning towards.
Since I'm too old and beat up to worry about lightening fast speed anymore,
good ol' stump pulling torque is what I'm after.

I'll keep updating as I get more accomplished. I hope that this first post wasn't too much of an overload,
but now the project has been posted and is up to date.

Any suggestions, tips, etc. that you guys have, please share!
I am all for getting as much information as I can get (especially from people who have already
been there and done that).
Last edited by colorado on Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby Barry Creary » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:15 am

Hi Colorado
Looks like a plan and coming along well, can you tell me what you used to clean up the inside of the gearbox and cases, they did come up very nice <999

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby steve m » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:55 am

looks like another one has finally found the right owner :thumb
good luck with it colorado. not sure you'll have to worry about torque if you decide to keep that sprocket :shock: :lol: only trouble you might have is finding a chain long enough :lol:

steve

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby kommando » Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:56 pm

A 32mm Amal will work fine on a B44, looks like a very thorough job.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby beat » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:24 pm

:thumb :thumb :thumb
beat <217

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby Ian Hingley » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:12 pm

Nice work!

Make sure the oil pump spins freely in your fingers when you've re-assembled it, with no tight spots at all.

Why does no-one give me bikes like that?

Good luck!

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby thingsthatgobang » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:15 pm

Realy nice project, Thats what I was looking for but they are geting exspensive over here so whent for the 250. Keep up the good work, Bang

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:22 pm

:ok
Last edited by colorado on Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:39 pm

After tearing this engine / transmission completely apart, the only issues that I found were
a tooth missing from the sleeve gear and the layshaft needle bearing had came apart.

all in all - not too bad. (coulda been a lot worse):
Image


One question though, This engine didn't have a primary chain tensioner on it and it doesn't look like
one was ever fitted. Did they not come equipped with them?

Plenty of slack in the old chain:
Image

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby minetymenace » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:12 pm

No they used the alternator wire :shock: I think later engines had the wire comming out at about 1030hrs when looking end on at the crank.

I think they were fitted as standard, but until they wear so that the rollers are running on the tensioner they are great swarf producers. The competition guys use strong chains and change them regularily, I run one on my FS, but the beast will be tensioner free.

I love the exploded view of the engine, how did you take that?

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby b50root » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:12 am

I have also removed my tensioner on my B50.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby beat » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:16 pm

I also run a chain from PES. no tensioner in now. can not feel any difference.( bike on the road since 10 000 Kms with. )
sleeve gears ( the sampels with all teeth on :oops: ) from mark cook -PES as well....
beat <203

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:17 am

No Tensioner - Check!
that's good, one less thing! :grin:

minetymenace wrote:I love the exploded view of the engine, how did you take that?

I just laid everything out on a rug in my workshop and took the pic while standing on a step stool.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby beat » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:24 pm

hi colorado,
I guess the use of no tensioner is only a good advice if the chain is new ( ore in good condition one )
using a old , overstreched thing it will touching the casing where the srews for the cover fit.
beat <201

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby Barry Creary » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:40 pm

Hi Colorado
How did you get the motor part to look like new :thumb

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:08 am

Barry Creary wrote:Hi Colorado
How did you get the motor part to look like new :thumb

Image

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:43 am

Well, I got the crankshaft assembly back together today. The conrod is now spinning nicely
with no longer any up and down slop.

It really wasn't too tough once I figured it out. I only had to take it apart 4 times to get it lined up.
One thing that I couldn't find anywhere was if you guys used loctite on the crankpin nuts or not.
I did.
A buddy and I trued it up on his lathe (rigged up a quick jig) and the runout is right on.
How do you guys on the other side of the pond say it? ........It's the Mutts Nuts! :lol:

One thing that really helped me get it lined up so quickly is that I scribed a couple of lines on the
flywheels before I separated them and used them as index marks when reassembling.

Image

I also relieved the inside of the bearings so now I have a tight sliding fit on the crank shafts.
I did this per kommandos recommendation of assembling, measuring the endplay, centering the
rod, disassembling and shimming.

Image

The outer bearing races are in the freezer right now, I'll install them tomorrow. Then after measuring,
I know that I won't have the right shims to attain the .003 endplay so I'll have to order some and then
wait to receive them before proceeding with buttoning up the crank case.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby kommando » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:35 am

The scribe mark is a neat trick, I forgot to do it on the last one I undid and now know how long it saves :shock:

You should have a look at this mod too.

viewtopic.php?f=65&t=2948

It sends cooler oil to the top end and keeps it quieter, you also do not get oil going in a loop and returning to the engine before it hits the return line filter.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:18 pm

Kommando:
I have checked out the oil feed mod and at first glance, I really don't see the benefits for the amount of work involved.
It just seems to add more complexity (read; more spots for potential leaks) to the design.

Is the goal to just move the oil feed line external? To act as a sort of pseudo oil cooler?
I will have to revisit it when I have the time to dig deeper.

I do like the idea of enlarging and chamfering the pushrod tunnel drain holes though, I think I'm going to do that.
You can never have too much oil on the cam - IMHO!

To be honest, I haven't put too much thought into the oiling system yet. Pressure relief, inline filter, etc...
I suppose that I probably should.

To date, I have just been working from my shop manual, I have a Ruperts Ratio book on order that should be here any day now,
I am looking forward to reading it and hopefully picking up a few tricks.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby kommando » Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:31 pm

In the factory setup the hot return oil is split off and most goes back to the tank and the rest feeds the rockers and ends up back in the sump. In this mod all of the return oil goes back to the tank and the split is on the feed just after the pump, its a cheaper way to emulate the Mark Cook mod where he in addition fits a filter in the feed just after the pump. It eliminates the pressure release valve which on a roller bearing never operates anyway, and the number of pipes is the same as on the std setup, the new pipe comes from the front of the engine, the factory setup has it come from the manifold on the bottom of the engine. The oil coming from the oil tank has cooled but this mod does not increase the cooling but stops hot oil going to the top end.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:29 pm

UPDATE:
I haven't spent much time on the project lately, still waiting on parts.
Also....the weather has been beautiful so I've been out riding a lot.

Still cleaning and just tinkering - doing things like:
Image

Image

kommando: I slightly reamed and chamfered the pushrod drain holes like you do,
(seems like a pretty good idea to me).
Last edited by colorado on Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:30 pm

I did recently find this unpleasantness:
Image

Image

WTF? Endfloat?
I guess this could explain the big end wearing out like it did.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby kommando » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:40 pm

If the engine had the ball bearing on the timing side its unlikely to be endfloat as the ball bearing should fix the crank in postion, more likely the cranknut came undone or the tab washer was badly fitted and ground into the outer cover. Loctitie the new seal in, the pressure is never high on a roller bearing big end hence why there is no circlip.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:04 am

I haven't posted on the project lately, I been occupied with life lately so
the bike has been put somewhat on the back burner.

I have made some progress - here's an update:

Crankshaft shimmed and cases bolted up tight:
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Back on the makeshift engine stand

Timing side:
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Piston in / cylinder on:
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Gearbox:
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Drive side (NOTE the holes drilled for crankcase breathing):
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Carburetor - 32mm. Amal:
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The Engine as of today - head bolted on:
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Rear Brake / hub:
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Image

Frame - only repair needed was welding the kickstand lug back on correctly:

Before:
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Image

After - paint, swingarm installed:
Image

I've also got the foot pegs, kickstand, top motor mount and brake pedal painted, I just didn't take a pic of them.

The rear fender is just mocked up for now. It was stock but I cut it down and rotated it forward about 5 inches.
The plan is to weld up the holes and paint it (eventually).
Last edited by colorado on Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:14 am

I've also spent a little time playing with the rocker arms,
Polishing them up like Rupert does:

Image

Image

Image

I'm not convinced that it will do much good, but it certainly can't hurt.

QUESTION:
I'm thinking about doing away with the thackery spring / washers and shimming the rocker arm endplay.
What do you guys think... Is it worth it?

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby minetymenace » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:22 am

colorado wrote:QUESTION:
I'm thinking about doing away with the thackery spring / washers and shimming the rocker arm endplay.
What do you guys think... Is it worth it?


Yes.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby ringding » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:00 pm

Nice looking project and what an acquisition!

Minty, how do you go about making up the shims? Been thinking about doing the same on my C25.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby HPbyStan » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:18 pm

Make sure the shims take up most of the clearance. If not, no matter how you set the valves you will have a top end clatter from the rocker arm being slammed back and forth.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:02 am

HPbyStan wrote:...... top end clatter.

Exactly what I want to avoid!

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:47 pm

Hello Everyone,
Here are a few more pics just to let you know that there is still some progress being made on my project.
However..... with work, the holidays, etc. it seems that the pace has slowed to a crawl.
The goal now is to have it done and ride-able by the time the snow melts in the spring.

THE ROCKER BOX:

The bore for the decompression lever (valve lifter) was wallered out so I had to devise a bushing for it.
It looks like it is going to work out just fine:
Image

Image

Image

I spent a little more time lightening and polishing the rocker arms:
Image

It is all back together now and bolted onto the engine.

PRIMARY DRIVE:

The clutch got new rollers
Image

New Cush Rubbers
Image

And a new Primary chain
Image

Rotor and Stator installed
Image

Just clutch plates and it's ready to button up.
I'm gonna do that with the engine back in the frame and the cable hooked back up
for the sake of an easy clutch adjustment.

I just received all of the pieces required to rebuild the Ceriani Front End from the steering
head bearings on down. That's the next step in this saga.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby beat » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:37 pm

:thumb :thumb :thumb
beat :grin:

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby Mark Cook » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:05 pm

I just love those clean bits :grin:

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby skippy » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:17 pm

The photos of the parts make a great archive of what an engine looks like.
It's a fantastic job your doing. :thumb
doug

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby steve m » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:08 pm

i cannot see the pics. and the images will not reload.
can some one help me please. :cry:

steve
edit: all is well :grin: . i had unchecked a box in firefox options :oops: .
Last edited by steve m on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby midgie » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:22 pm

beat wrote::thumb :thumb :thumb
beat :grin:

nice looking job,dont think i would trust those slotted screws in the clutch centre though, i would use 5mm socket heads you can get them nice and tight then grind off any excess length on the rear. keep up the good work regards midgie

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:43 pm

midgie,
I actually had some concerns about those screws, as one was loose when I first disassembled the clutch.
When I put the assembly back together, I took the extra time to clean the threads really well, used some loctite, gave
them a few taps with my impact driver and staked them with a center punch.

If for some reason they end up coming loose, I will replace them with better fasteners.

Image

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby b50root » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:42 pm

Those screews are crap.

http://b50.org/clutch5.htm

Rickard

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby colorado » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:25 pm

crap huh?

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby PeoB50 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:19 pm

Amazing documentation of your project.......really cool!
Are you a professional photographer too?
Since you are building more of a torquer you might find what I did to my
flywheels interesting/amusing. Mine is a local street tracker/chugger.
I don't now how to give you the direct link but just look under the "Projects" section
and find it down a page or so w/ the latest post June 24, 2012, subj: "Peo50"
Thanks for your story and good luck....one always needs some of that at the
moment of truth after the thaw....
Tom

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Re: 1967 B44 Victor 441 - colorado's project

Postby PeoB50 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:33 pm

a couple of items from my recent , but limited, experience building my B50:
- Stans "Blueprinting the gearbox" under "Tech" section is invaluable
Definitely worth doing IMO.
- Adding an oil filter worth the effort.
- Your bush and o-ring on the comp relief, excellent! mine leaks like a siv
- Are you sure you didn't shear the rocker arm shaft o-rings during asssembly,
hard not to. You need to add a good chamfer to act as a lead for the orings
as you push in the shafts.....assuming B44 same as B50 in this respect
- I locktited and peened those little access plate screws behind the clutch as you did
and so far they're OK
- Rupert's book has a good description of how to assemble the quadrant/camplate, camplate
detent spring, etc.
- on the rocker box, consider changing from studs to allen bolts so you can remove it w/o
having to remove the engine....if like B50 in this respect
Tom


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