Little BSS cafe racer

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Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:15 am

Hello ,
i've just bought a B50SS from UK. My brother had one in the seventies.
i'd like to make a cafe racer but still use it on road.
i write ''little '' because when i see all the great project bikes on this kind web site , mine would be very modest.

for the beginning , changing the oil before running , i find a hole in the sump plate filter .
The seal is made with paste .
in the frame i drain a few volume of oil , a lot of it in the primary case and the front filter screen on the frame has
a lot of little bits of seal paste .

i think that the scavenge pump has eaten them and risk to have been stopped. i think i must not run like this...?
teh engine has a good compression but...

do you know if i can dismantle the pump with the engine in the frame, without dismantle the timing pinions ?
i have no puller for them ...

thanks
Francois

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by minetymenace » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:22 am

Yes, you can take the oil pump out without pulling the timing gear off. You need to remove the studs, I have done this by locking two half nuts on the studs, but you may find there is not enough room in which case you may have to resort to a pair of mole (vice) grips but this will bu&&er up the threads and the stud will have to be replaced during re-assembly.

If someone has been over enthusiastic with the goo, you should consider a complete strip down as you sludge trap will probably be full.....
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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by kommando » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:02 pm

When you put it back together use Loctite 518, this is anaerobic, it only sets with no air present, so any excess squeezed out of the joint stays liquid and dissolves in the oil or wipes off the outside. Result is not bits of sealant collecting in filters or oilways blocking oil.

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:19 pm

Thanks a lot.
let' go easy...slowly

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:27 am

sorry , i still search answers from the owner's manual ...and i have read the rupert ratio too.
my english is perhaps too poor..

i don't find how to strip the sump ball valve ? i have to clean and cut it's end pipe to change the sump filter .
is it inserted in the oil pump ? i believe not

you fairly advise me to use loctite 518 :
behind the pump plate i see a plane gasket , so you think the 518 is even necessary ?

Thanks
Francois

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by minetymenace » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:50 am

The pipe is a push fit, can be gently teased out with a pair of pliers (maybe put a dowel up the pipe to prevent crushing), or screw a suitable bolt or self tapper into the pipe an pull, maybe a bit of heat.

Consider lost of solvent (petrol perhaps) and an airline rather than taking it apart if you are nervous.....
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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by kommando » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:58 am

you fairly advise me to use loctite 518 :
behind the pump plate i see a plane gasket , so you think the 518 is even necessary ?
On a sump gasket I put the 518 on one side and a thin smear of grease on the other, the 518 goes on the side of the gasket where I want the gasket to stay on removing the sump plate, the grease allows the sump plate to be removed easily.

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:21 pm

Hello
the new sump plate is fitted, even filled with new oil to start.
with the wassel electronic ignition , the bike is started easyly , i was really surprised . it run and idle fairly...great

but ......the scavenge pump spited two or three times before stopping its work.
so i have just run the engine a few minutes
perso.jpg
the little B50 project
changing oil , the scavenge pump start quickly ? i mustn't run longer like this ?
i think the scavenge valve is correct , but it is difficult to feel if the ball really move or not..

so the only way is to dismantle the pump case ?

later , i 'll enjoy to change the camshaft for a MX one and a maybe a 34 mm carb if the big end is in good condition.
thanks for your advises

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by beat » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:38 pm

hi francois
FGF wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:21 pm
the scavenge pump spited two or three times before stopping its work.
the big question is: dos it have oil in the sump - ore dos the engine " storidge " the oil in the primary case ?

some of this " english masterpieces " ( as mine ), tendences to bulk up to one liter oil in the clutch case.
this means, for a long period NO oil is coming back to the tank.

as a result, - if there is not enough oil in the tank, - the feed pump and the engine is running dry !

beat <201

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:43 am

thanks Beat ,
i'd have a look with the primary case .

i 'll put some new oil in the pushrod hole by the cylinder head and try again .
if it doesn't work , go to timing case dismantling...

i work slowly because i 'm not really good equipped.
i 'm very amazed to see how some of you seem to have a professionnal skill !
very impressive
i carry on anyway , the bike is here...

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by kommando » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:48 am

Think of the oil pump as 2 pumps, the feed side is critical, the return side is less critical as if it stops returning the feed side will still run under the tank level drops giving a few minutes supply. If the feed side works then testing the return side can be performed as long as the tank is kept topped up.

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:43 pm

Good thanks,
so i can try a little again with oil in the pushrod hole.

the only way to know if the feed pump is working in good condition
is to see the tank level decrease ? and then the big end get oil...

my luck is a fair starting engine !

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by koncretekid » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:13 pm

Did you get the sump spigot out to check the ball (sometimes rusted or plugged up)? I found that by tapping the hole to 6mm x1mm (someone else had posted that on this forum, thank you), I could screw in a fairly long 6mm bolt with enough threads to place a nut and a spacer (socket that is slightly larger than the body of the spigot), I could just tighten the nut down to pull the spigot out. There is a small pin that holds the ball in that quite often is rusty but can be carefully drifted out and replaced along with the ball.

I should mention that with the '71 cases, the passageway that goes from the sump to the oil pump sometimes breaks thru thru the inside of the cases, but you can't see it unless you split the cases as can be seen here. Obviously, the pump can't draw the oil up the passage if there is an open hole in the crankcases until the oil rises to the level of the hole. Look at the small hole in the cases in this photo:

Image

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:50 pm

Hello Koncretekid ,

i did'nt answer because i was working on the old electrical wiring .
a friend has welded my outer timing case for the worn ignition threads .

i 've cleaned the non return feed valve . i'vnot seen any trouble on it.

i was scared about your photo which shows a bad tiny hole...i hope if my case had it that the problem has been solved
for long time before...

i 'll try to fire it when the case come back and force -feed the engine with oil before to see if the pump wake up.

then , strip all to fit the head with a bigger carb with an MX cam. i 've read many many posts for the carb...

has someone found a spigot to fit a mikuni vm 34 without machining the welded plate of the frame ?
allens_mikuni.jpg
allens parts
for the vm 34 the center distance would be 50.8 and often many spigots have a different size .
however , if you use this way of fitting , is it a good solution ?

many thanks

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by beat » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:49 pm

hi francoise

is not the distance A by 70 mm for the VM34 ?? ?

this means, the zylinderhead nead some welding work to make it fit.

I do use a Mik TM 32 on my bike, but with a very short selfmade spigot because there is very smal space for the carb on the Cheney frame.

in general, this nitrile rubber spigots are avery good solution IMO.

the problem is to make it fit by the long distance of the fixing bolts.

beat

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by koncretekid » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:07 pm

Check with Sudco. I think they made this adapter that came with my TM34 that I bought on eBay (NOS) from a previous owner. However, fitting it on a B50 may be a problem.
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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:00 am

Hello ,

i think it 's possible to use the plate manifold with A=70 and cut it and drill two new holes with A=50.8 .

but , does someone use such a manifold and can tell if it's a good way ....no air leak ?
for the fitting , may be it 's possible to remove the studs and put two helicoils with screws to have a larger gap .

Hi Beat , your selfmade spigot has a diamond shape area ? i saw one of these , difficult to machine ...

French B50 rider , MX or racer , often cut a large hole in the frame gusset . i 'm not ready for this way .

i have to try it but i 'm not yet sure to choose the 32 or 34 to fit with a PES MX camshaft .

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by minetymenace » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:49 pm

There is enough meat on the original manifold to turn it down to a round that will take a cylindrical sleeve. PES are set up to do this..
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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:21 pm

Thanks Minetymenace.

you're wright of course , because i made a big mistake , if i drill new holes at 50.8 , i cross the O ring groove , sorry.

i 'm afraid that the machining will be expensive, but i 'll ask to Mark .

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by beat » Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:02 pm

FGF wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:00 am
Hi Beat , your selfmade spigot has a diamond shape area ? i saw one of these , difficult to machine ...

diamond shape area :?: :?:
( I have no money for diamonds :lol: :lol: )

the self-made short spigot is to se in the Topic " MIKUNI TM 32-1 FLATSLIDE on B50 "
it is in the " Tech " section

beat
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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by B44Claus » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:32 am

Hi Francois,

If I was you I would just buy a plate manifold for a VM32 and enlarge the hole "C" to 34 mm. If it's rubber you can cut it with a sharp knife, - if it's steel you can file it to the larger diameter. The plate manifold for the VM32 will fit directly to the cylinder head as it has the bolt distance of 2" / 50,8 mm.

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:59 pm

Hi Claus ,

Thanks , i 've send an email to Allens about this way . it 's a good idea .
Cutting C from 33 up to 34.5 will be a delicate work to have a smooth face but even possible.

My french B50 will not be so fast than an english one but , i hope not ridiculous at the end.

i 'm looking for a fuel tank too, does anyone know the mail of '' The tank shop '' in scotland , expensive but kind ...

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by minetymenace » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:13 pm

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by beat » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:50 pm

FGF wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:59 pm
Cutting C from 33 up to 34.5 will be a delicate work
Rubber should be removed by grinding, - not by cutting.

beat <201

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:59 pm

Hello ,
i found the picture on the right in a french BSA forum :
BSA_TDC.jpg
The right and quick way ?
The '' spoke '' is almost vertical despite of the inclined spark hole.
i can read 10 mm on the rule and the alternator rotor mark is nearly on 34°.

this Wassel ignition has started once with a big ignition advance ...
But now no start .

i 've cleaned the Amal Mk1 pilot . the HT coil has 5 ohms and 8400 ohms on the primary and secondary
and i have a spark on the new champion N3.
But it is rather white -yellow than blue !

Does somebody had problems with the CDI of a Wassel ignition ?

i wanted to upgrade the carburator and even the ignition but i'd like to ride it one time before ..

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by mlb50 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:07 am

Yes - I had a new Wassel ignition and found it made the coil very hot. I put the original points back in and the coil only got warm.
I then fitted a TriSpark and it has been perfect. I also sent the Wassel to TriSpark for testing and they reported it had a very long "on" time that is too much for the coil.
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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:01 am

Thanks MLB50

did you have problem to start ?
my previous owner put a mark with a larger advance than 34° , i think may be to start easily with the wassel.

a long time ago, it started two times and had a good idle.
i was working on oil problems before...the primary case is filling strangely with engine oil ..

now , i try the two marks and no start.

for the tri spark , i have a podtronic rectifier and they don't are suitable i believe.

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by nopdog » Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:24 am

Am I missing something here?
The bike is not running.
The primary case is filling with oil.
If your primary case is filling with oil and the bile is not running. I's say it's wet sumping.
How quickly does it fill with oil.
If it's over a few days. Then it's wet sumping.
You will not know if the scavenge pipe in the sump is working until the bike is running.
If you want a good long days reading put wet sumping in the search box.
The little ball in the scavenge pipe you can hardly feel it moving if poking it with wire etc.
Once you know the ball is moving I'd next check the pressure relief valve, spring and ball.
Good luck.
Nopdog

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by mlb50 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:25 am

Thanks MLB50

did you have problem to start ?
my previous owner put a mark with a larger advance than 34° , i think may be to start easily with the wassel.
No problem to start with the TriSpark. It is very important that your battery is good +12V and the spark plug clean. Also the carburettor must be clean and fresh petrol.

The technique for B50 must be followed to get a 1st kick start -

1. Carb slide lifter screw increase this by 3/4 turns up.
2. Turn the piston over compression, push down the kick lever to horizontal. (This brings the piston to the bottom and then half way up)
3. Return the kick lever to upper position.
4. Press the carb tickler to flood.
5. DO NOT MOVE THE THROTTLE - hands off.
6. Ignition ON.
7. Big fast kick - it will start.

When the motor is warmed up, screw the slide lifter screw down to a nice idle. PS - The mixture screw is normally at 1.5 turns out. This is a standard setting but can be adjusted if neccesary.
B50 @ 10:1 - what's a leg between friends?

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:43 am

Thanks NOPDOG ,

my feed valve is in good condition. the feeding pump worrks .
the scavenge valve seems to work , with a wire i see oil leaking slowly but i did'nt succeed to strip it , engine in the frame.
i think the scavenge pump don't work enough when just kicking et the sump keep wet.

About the start problem , MLB50 i wanted to know if you had problems with the Wassel before your trispark because i don't know yet
if it don't start due to the wassel spark ( not very blue ) or the carb .
and oddly , the previous owner fitted the timing with a bigger advance than 34°. he wrote '' it start and run well ''

some said the wassel works good ( several posts ) and some not .
i 'm nearly ready to buy a trispark

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by mlb50 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:26 am

The Wassel was OK to start and run the motor, but after 1 minute the coil was getting very hot. This is a bad sign and can cause unreliability or complete breakdown.
The TriSpark is very nice, easy to install and time the ignition.
I recommend you only use the factory 34 degree BTDC setting - more advance can be dangerous to your leg! <218
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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Sat May 16, 2020 10:33 am

Hello

i carry on my slow way , primary drive stripped.

i 've read many posts and it 's difficult to find the right wrench for the gearbox sprocket nut :
A/F 1.479 '' in the workshop manual.

i find only 1 1/2 '' box spanner : 38.1 instead of 37.56 for the nut.

do you use a 38 mm metric box spanner for this nut ? i don't want to mash the nut...

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Sun May 17, 2020 9:50 am

Sorry , i 've found the Kommando 's post .
i 've ordered a 38 mm metric socket.

i 've received the VM34 from Motocarb , the MX camshaft is coming from EetV and
many parts from PES.

ready to remove the engine unit.
unit.jpg
the rear plate have no distance piece , is it a mistake ?

it 's not the last surprise from the previous owner...

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Fri May 22, 2020 4:10 pm

Hello !

i 've read the rupert advises to repair the rocker 's wear , near the contact with the exhaust valve lifter :
decomp_us.jpg
25000 miles wear...
can someone explain me some details about the welding process ? or do you think that is an unnecessary work ?

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Sat May 23, 2020 3:31 pm

'' checking the rocker box '' :

the exhaust pushrod ( on the right ) has his steel end cup freely rotating around itself and a little gap
can be seen between it and the aluminium part :
tiges.jpg
it doesn't seem to be screwed and i can't move it except rotating... i 've not seen anywhere how this is fitted :

just '' RUPERT '' says : fit it with loctite , but i don't want to force to strip it , if it can be reused ...

i 'd have a second question for the rocker spindle stripping :
the spindles are push fitted but i don't see what would be the thrust ; there is no shoulder on the spindle ...
so they must be pushed until they reach the end of the box case with a guesstimate way ?

thanks for your advises.

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by minetymenace » Sat May 23, 2020 3:51 pm

The push rods caps are just pushed on, not threaded. The ends just pull off, so there is probably only a small burr holding the cap on. Squeeze some locking compound in or pull the top off and re-set. Probably best to leave this until the end incase you have to adjust the length (by putting something under the cap), but this is normally only a B25 thing...

The rocker shafts have a shoulder at the end of the thread, so are done up until they go tight. Hope this helps.
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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Fri May 29, 2020 2:41 pm

Hello ! some troubles again ...

some friction mark on the piston but not too hard ?
20200529_150412_resized.jpg
stock conrod old but grinded on the side !!
20200529_150557_resized.jpg
the liner seem to be OK , without friction marks , but curious half holes on the liner , usual machining ?
20200529_150859_resized.jpg
is it possible to clean the sludge trap by the sump ? i think not ...
20200529_121848_resized.jpg
problem : with the corona virus parts from USA are difficult to order
and in England conrods are out of stock ...

i wanted to rebuilt the big end but maybe it won't be possible this summer ...

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minetymenace
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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by minetymenace » Fri May 29, 2020 2:52 pm

PES made me a nice rod, have you tried them? Half holes on liner to clear rod when crank at 90 and 270 deg, no, split the crank to clear sludge trap....lots of summer left, go for it!
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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Sat May 30, 2020 9:31 am

Thanks Gerry ,

yes , i 've asked PES for a new rod but , i 've no date for the next manufacturing.

maybe a carillo will be possible later by EV or by cambridgemotorsport in England..
i 'm going to ask PES if the PES big end is easily fitted in a carillo .

on the sludge trap , the punch marks doesn't overlap the thread like if this one had been stripped once.
they don't look like ''BSA 's work '' .

the speedometer shows 25000 kms for a bike who was sold in south africa in 1971.
in this country BSA sold it 's bikes with speedometer in miles ?

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Re: Little BSS cafe racer

Post by FGF » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:59 am

Hello

Looking for a new conrod , i find this number on it :
bielle_3.jpg
41-550 ? i 've seen on ebay '' used conrod B44 -50 '' with this number .

is it a worse conrod than the 71-1635 - B50 one ?

it has been grinded near the big end :
bielle_4.jpg
do you know if this work was made by the factory ( every conrods ) or the previous rider made it ?
my crankcase have been stripped , the head 's screws are tired .

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