AL/Sn and White Metal Bearings

Here you can talk about all kind of TECH for the B50 B44 B25 And Other BSA unit Singles

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AL/Sn and White Metal Bearings

Post by kommando » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:03 pm

Edit by MM This topic was split from koncetedkids topic in Project Bikes topic "B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats", the pruning is a bit blunt [sorry] but was seperated by popular demand.




The B25 shell bearings seem to be whitemetal, the Triumph 500 which have the same dimensions but no oil hole for the squirt of oil to the piston are al/sn and much stronger than the whitemetal especially in high rev situation. If you post some pics of the stamping on the back of the bearing shell I can tell you what you have.

If you can get them the best ones for your application would be Vandervell VP2 which is lead/indium plated copper/lead. The indium is an excellent antisieze element, only downside is higher wear rate but for short speed runs that is not an issue.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Post by koncretekid » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:50 am

I took some photos of the rod bearing that were about to give up the ghost. Also had to make a new keyway in the crankshaft that drives the pinion gear and worm gear that drive the cam gear and oil pump respectively. Here are a couple of photos of the bearing inserts after 14 runs (5 at Loring, and 9 at Bonneville.) It is possible that I ruined the bearings when I started the motor up in the Spring without priming the oil pump, hence no oil pressure. Also shown is crankshaft with new keyway (3/16") because the original 5/32" Woodruff keyway was worn about .020" at the top - - hard to make a new woodruff key that would be tight. So we made a straight 3/16" keyway and then made some stepped keys. Just for the hell of it, I made a couple of extra ones with the offset to the right and to the left for fine tuning the cam timing (mainly because I could do so in a few minutes after the Bridgeport Mill was already set up.) The one in the center is stepped .015" on each side, while the one on the left is stepped .030" on the left. The one on the right is stepped .030" on the right, but you can't see it. The top of the back of each key had to be relieved to make sure it didn't interfere with the oil pump drive worm gear that it drives. My luck in finding a guy like Doug Edwards (machinist in Longmont, Co.) is truly amazing. I have the use of all the tools of a modern machine shop and a teacher as well.
bearing inserts.jpg
keyway in crankshaft.jpg
new stepped keys.jpg

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Post by kommando » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:48 am

Can't see if they are Whitemetal or Aluminium Tin but that looks like Whitemetal peeling off not Aluminium/Tin (which comes off in much bigger chunks) so get Triumph 500 shells to replace them. You also had some dirt in the engine which circulated in the bearing giving that groove that is on both bearings and you fitted 2 top bearings as the bottom one should have no hole.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Post by kommando » Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:18 am

I did sir :thumb

Al/Sn comes off in pieces like alumninium foil (which it is as it is alloy roll bonded to the steel), if you look at the 2 areas on those shells you can see it looks as if the bearing has melted which is the failure mode of Whitemetal when the load is too high. Whitemetal is poured molten onto to tinned hot steel and the excess is knifed off when hot, its a low melting temp alloy which does not handle high loads. BSA also used it on the A65's and I am sure that this contributed to their problems on that engine as well as the B25, I blame Vandervell who supplied them and should have recommended Al/S but as their rivals Glacier Bearing had the patent they came up with weird ideas to keep the business.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Post by minetymenace » Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:21 pm

So when Jo Public buys a set of shells, how would you know if they are AL/Sn or white metal? Is there an easy way of spotting the bearing material, 'cos the parinoid oik behind the counter will more concerned with his over bearing load rather than your overloaded bearing.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Post by kommando » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:13 pm

Whitemetal will have a shiney surface back will be clean steel, Al/Sn will have a dull nearly matt sheen but smooth and the back will have a browny blue staining (not always it can be polished if not Glacier), plated copper lead will be a matt grey darker the Al/Sn with stains on the steel back from the plating.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Post by koncretekid » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:18 pm

Following is photo of trademark on outside of bearing. I was told it is Vandervell. And it is for BSA 650, as the journal size was enlarged to that size.
Tom
bearing logo.jpg

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Post by kommando » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:01 pm

Have you got one of the part number stamping, I can workout which material it is made from but it does look like whitemetal. Glacier made some Al/Sn A65 Bearings for Velocette (the parts distributor run by an ex Velocette owner) back in the early 2000's and if you could get some of those you should not have this problem again. John Healy would know who stocks them. They will have a capital G in a square stamped on the back, I will look to see if I have any but can't remember seeing any the last time I looked. You also should consider using 2 bottom bearings so there are no oil holes and feeding the oil lubricating the followers into the crankcase to compensate for the reduced oil splash to the piston.

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Post by kommando » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:21 pm

These are the shell bearings you DO NOT WANT.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NOS-Conn ... 2eb8151a32

The shiny surface shows they are Whitemetal and Vandervell that made them had both halves with oil holes to save a setup on the machines no doubt to get a lower price for BSA.

These MAY be the ones to go for, no oil holes and the lines on the bearing surface show the final bore was cut with a Broach which is common on Glacier bearings, Vandervell are single point bored. I would quiz the seller and have him send you a picture of the back of the bearing so I can check it. Oil holes may be added to the top bearing if required but it will need counter boring inside and out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BSA-A10-A50-A65 ... 35b57e4cd2

And these could be the same but with oil holes

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ROD-BEAR ... 588cd80acd

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Post by HPbyStan » Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:29 pm

Rickard, Gerry, is there a way to save this bearing information in a seperate place so it stays easy to find ?

Edit by MM: I will split this bit of the discussion off into a new topic (if thats OK with you koncretekid, but I will wait a couple of days so that people will have time to read this and know what will happen.....

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Post by koncretekid » Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:04 am

I have no problem with that, although I may be the only B50 owner who needs bearing inserts to fit a 650 twin!
Tom

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Re: B50 at Bonneville Salt Flats

Post by kommando » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:03 pm

All this applies to the B25 which used Tri 500 shells (and con-rods) plus it also carries over to all the Brit twins.

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Re: AL/Sn and White Metal Bearings

Post by kommando » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:57 pm

Big end bearing made by Glacier using sintered Cu/Pb on steel overlay plated with Pb/Sn. Any Glacier bearing with LC in the part number identifies it as Cu/Pb with overlay plating. Note the back of the bearing has a plated finish, front of bearing has a matt grey finish with no machining marks. Vandervell VP2 is a cast Cu/Pb on steel overlay plated with Pb/Indium and is a marginally stronger bearing. Both are much stronger than Al/Sn and even stronger than whitemetal.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q135 ... G_0862.jpg

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q135 ... G_0861.jpg

Have posted links as the pics are large

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Re: AL/Sn and White Metal Bearings

Post by kommando » Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:02 pm

Series of pics of New Al/Sn bearings, the brown hue on the back of the bearing is due to heat used in an annealing operation and can include blue colouration.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q135 ... G_0852.jpg

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q135 ... G_0848.jpg

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q135 ... G_0847.jpg

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q135 ... G_0846.jpg

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Re: AL/Sn and White Metal Bearings

Post by koncretekid » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:08 am

I took some photos of old bearing (Vanderwell) and new bearing in the hopes that Kommando can identify them. Also, I have photos of underside of piston, top of connecting rod, and piston pin (old one on left). As you can see, things got pretty hot up there. So I decided to make an oil squirter to try to cool the underside of piston and pin. The first photo shows the squirter nozzle, a piece of 1/8" copper tubing with the end plugged and a .025" hole drilled in it. The next photo shows the special bolt we made which fits in the threaded hole normally used for timing, and is drilled and tapped for 1/8" NPT. The last photo shows the squirter in place. I have tried it using the cleaning solvent from my parts cleaner, and it squirts an nice small stream of fluid. I haven't tried it with motor oil, but I'm hoping it will work to cool things down.
Vanderwell bearing insert.jpg
Glacier bearing insert.jpg
underside of piston.jpg
Connecting rod.jpg
piston pins.jpg
oil squirter.jpg
oil squirter bushing.jpg
oil squirter in place.jpg

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Re: AL/Sn and White Metal Bearings

Post by kommando » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:40 am

Your new bearings are Glacier Al/Sn, the G in a square is copied a lot but the KC is a month/year manufacture date code which is not copied and only used by the Glacier factory.

The picture of the old bearing does not add much as its just the BSA part number, the failure mode is the killer and that says melting Whitemetal.

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Re: AL/Sn and White Metal Bearings

Post by minetymenace » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:15 pm

Discussion about Oil Squirting in the bore relating to this thread can be found here.

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Re: AL/Sn and White Metal Bearings

Post by kommando » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:58 pm

SRM of the UK have bought some Cast Copper/Lead plated bearing from Clevite in the US, these are the closest you will get to the proper VP2 Vandervell bearings, the plating layer does not contain Induim but this is only needed for running in. Details here


http://www.audioworld.net/BSA/forum/ind ... 028.0.html

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Re: AL/Sn and White Metal Bearings

Post by HPbyStan » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:27 pm

I learned more about plain bearings from this thread than I've had the reason or opportunity to in the rest of my life. Thank You.

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Re: AL/Sn and White Metal Bearings

Post by matt49g » Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:10 am

I learned a lot from this thread, but now know less than when I started. I just got new Glacier bearings for my B25. After reading this thread about twenty times, I'd say they were whitemetal, the inside is real shiny and the outside shell has the steel color. On the back is the G in the little square, followed by S9725m; the second line is .030 U/S, which would be the size; and the third line is T/B KY . Did Glacier make whitemetal bearings as well as the Al/Sn? As the bike is intended for light dirt-track duty, I'm open to suggestions as the best course of action, just use what I have or look for Al/Sn bearings? If the latter, where would be a good place to look? What Glacier part number would I want? I'm trying to attach a picture of the bearings, but am having a little trouble with that.

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Re: AL/Sn and White Metal Bearings

Post by b50root » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:36 am

matt49g wrote: I'm trying to attach a picture of the bearings, but am having a little trouble with that.
http://b50.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2588

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Re: AL/Sn and White Metal Bearings

Post by kommando » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:31 pm

Did Glacier make whitemetal bearings as well as the Al/Sn?

Yes they did, line was dismantled years ago so those shells are old.

T/B means the shell can be used top or bottom position, KY is a date code only known to the factory and used for traceability.

The bearings you want are Triumph Unit 500 shells, they are mainly Al/Sn so make sure they are the correct type and they will come without the hole for the feed to con-rod squirt which IMHO is good, get your piston oil instead by filling in the 2 drain holes from the timing chamber to the sump and drill an alternative hole horizontally from the timing chamber to the crank. The new route will supply oil to the flywheels and some of this will be flung upwards.

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