stainless bolts

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stainless bolts

Post by johnq » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:50 pm

as I slowly gather parts for the big push ive acquired a few stainless bolts to keep it pretty, I believe I need to lubricate these, what does everyone use for this purpose, I was thinking molyslip or similar,
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Re: stainless bolts

Post by Col » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:51 pm

I`ve been using copper slip grease.

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by beat » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:00 pm

johnq wrote: stainless bolts
IMO, best is to brush the tread with a rotating wire brush Stainless wires of cause.
then lubing them with a silicone grease like the white one from Bellray .
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Re: stainless bolts

Post by besaboy » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:56 pm

Just remember that a lot of stainless used is not a strong as normal bolts. Have seen lots of broken stainless sprocket bolts on MX bikes over the years. <201

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by minetymenace » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:46 am

Use stainless everywhere, never seen a broken bolt in road use. Always use copper grease.
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Re: stainless bolts

Post by johnq » Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:19 am

Coppergrease it is then. theres a tin on the shelf ive had for donkeys.cheers people
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Re: stainless bolts

Post by LONGSTROKE » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:03 pm

Never heard of it being used for donkeys! <201 I've heard of it being used in the country next door for sheep! :ban

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by hwan » Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:16 pm

Stainless steel nuts/bolts are never a good idea ..... full stop !

The ability for SS to cold-weld/gall itself together is legion .....

The 'just about SS' usually sold has the yield strength of chewing gum - at the best it stretches like hell.

IF and i mean IF - you use the stuff, then buy something with 316 embossed on it, lower grade 306/304 is crap.

NEVER i repeat NEVER screw SS into aluminum alloys using COPPERSLIP or similar metal based lubricant - if there is any salt water immersion (i.e. UK winter roads) it forms a very nice chemical/electrical corrosion cell - you know the white stuff which is your ali threads disintegrating!

Use any other grease if you must use SS - for offshore use the best lubricant is LANOLIN - the stuff which covers sheep wool (as our Aussie or Welsh members) - if you think that UK road conditions are nothing like offshore - my boats deteriorated far worst when moored on fresh water, inland, than when by the side of the cold north Sea.
Owning boats quickly teach you what corrodes and how to stop it !

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by hwan » Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:19 pm

Oh yes - SS also work hardens rapidly.

So all those SS spokes you have bought - i hope they have been stress-relived/annealed after they where upset and then bent - as they are waiting to fracture.

The threads will also have been cut rather than rolled - if they have been rolled, it must have been a very soft SS ?!!

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by hwan » Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:21 pm

Finally - i hope those SS spokes have BRASS nipples as i bet SS nipples will become unmovable as the threads weld together.

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by minetymenace » Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:19 pm

I take it hwan was dropped on his head onto a stainless steel floor when he was young. :roll:

Use stainless with copper grease everywhere, ride in the winter on salt roads, clean my bike rarely, no white stuff, and as far as I know, still have threads in the casings...
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Re: stainless bolts

Post by BSA_WM20 » Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:27 pm

Well I will agree with him on some points.
Nickle grease is what one should be using on most grades of stainless going into alloy, not copper grease as you can under the correct conditions get nasty galvanic reactions, although on a motorcycle probably only head bolts are likely to get close.
Marine stabilised stainless steel bolts are the only ones I would use on a motorcycle, oft refferred to as Vinalloy because they are stabilized with Vanadium which means they really should be called Vanalloy but that is a different story.
This is also surgical implant grade stainless and rapid fire gun barrel stainless.
We used to sell a lot of old cannon barrels to a small factory who made marine fittings out of them as the scrap value of Vinalloy is about 25% of the round & flat stock price. How they did it is a mystery because it is a bitch to machine which is why it is used for cannon barrels.
Stainless has the problem that almost any trash that has nickel & chrome in it can be called "Stainless" so only buy your stainless fasteners from known quality goods suppliers.
As for Gauling I would consider that an advantage as it works better than loktite particularly on small chassis fasteners.
And like locktite, a little heat & penetrting oil will usually free them up.

The big problem is people do not understand that if you are ordering stainless fasteners , you must always specify the tensile grade, otherwise you get very soft low strength decorative bolts and you can get 9.5 in stainless, if your pockets are deep enough, but titanium aircraft bolts would possibabily be cheaper.
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Re: stainless bolts

Post by hwan » Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:49 pm

M&M - i spent a large period of my working life, working with SS and Titanium.
It is an admirable material when used for its original purpose - which is chemical resistance.

The s##t sold for the m/c industry is unmarked, unknown crap which not surprisingly rusts as soon as it see's a UK winter - have a close look at you cap-head screws and spot the corrosion........

Then work on a JAP bike which which has used SS fasteners - for decorative purposes.
You will round off/shear the bugger's as they are corroded into alloy and are soft as a Andrex puppy.

Very nice in the cutlery draw - not nice for anything structural - and don't quote the S71 B/Bird, it was mainly SS but of a grade and quality unlike what you or i can only dream of.

As for the marine industry, insurance companies dictates what you can use - they will happily walk away from a claim when the keel drops off, loss of life of vessel and you cannot provide mill certificates for the material used (i was lucky as i could mike mine out of Hastalloy - to the then ISO2001).
Particularly if you use SS .... carbon steels, despite the corrosion, is far more acceptable ...................

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by Andy Chaos » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:41 pm

That explains why your bikes always look so shit Whan, :mrgreen:
I always use stainless cap screws on the cases with no lubricant and can usually strip the threads well before I snap or stretch the bolt. :laugh
I wouldn't dream of using stainless for engine bolts and the like but it does have its use in the right place and always avoid stainless nuts on stainless bolts if your going really tight.
Last edited by Andy Chaos on Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by AJ CCM » Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:48 pm

[quote="hwan"]

IF and i mean IF - you use the stuff, then buy something with 316 embossed on it, lower grade 306/304 is crap.

As a rule of Thumb A4-80 bolts are same tensile strength as Steel Bolts Grd 8.8 and A4 is 316 St.Steel
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Re: stainless bolts

Post by hwan » Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:23 am

As i said - RE; A4/316 etc.

Andy - you know why my bikes look like s**t - because they are s**t, once sorted i lose interest.
That being said, none of my Enduro bikes have ever failed to finish a race in what is it now, 4 years - apart from the fork failure .......

You did'nt buy those SS cap-heads did you? - anyway those cases are one/off so often never get time to corrode solid....... :grin:

That last statement alone means the B25's latest reincarnation wont finish Buxton in two weeks time !
And there may be S12 tires marks all over my still quivering body .......

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by BSA_WM20 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:25 pm

Put a dozen stainless nuts on a length of rope. Thread is not important.
Walk into the bathroom
Remove your cloths'
Flagulate your self 100 times repeating
" Stainless is not the same as rustelss
Stainless is not the same as rustless
Stainless is not the same as rustless
Stainless is not the same as rustless
Stainless is not the same as rustless
Stainless is not the same as rustless
Stainless is not the same as rustless
Stainless is not the same as rustless
Stainless is not the same as rustless
Stainless is not the same as rustless
Stainless is not the same as rustless
Stainless is not the same as rustless" :werd
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Re: stainless bolts

Post by minetymenace » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:31 pm

OK, done that, now what? Can I still use SS fasteners on my bike...my back hurts.
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Re: stainless bolts

Post by hwan » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:18 pm

Self flagellation - cheaper than tatoo's ???

I guess if you actually take your shiny pride and joy out in the rain - or god forbid - drive it through winter - you may find a bit of corrosion.
But then again if it sits in the garage ........

Errrr? - decent SS should not actually rust - the problem is that you have absolutely no idea what you are buying most of the time as people will not pay for quality.
My friendly marine chandler would not stock SS shackles as his punters would not pay £26 for a high quality (insurance company rated) 2" shackle to attach the anchor to their +£75K toys. But then again, the dearer the toy - the less likely they actually went anywhere ....

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by WeirdTim » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:25 pm

Whenever I use stainless into aluminum, the stainless threads get coated with Bel Ray Assembly Lube because of how thick it is and how much moly it has in it. The last thing I'd want to do is introduce ANOTHER metal (copper or aluminum) in threads that are being compressed. Really think the main goal is to remove all air from in between the threads and that can probably be achieved many different ways.

Just an opinion that has worked very well riding my old Moto Guzzi through the winter road salt, rain and even some sunshine here in Wisconsin.

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by beat » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:58 pm

Hmmmmm <201 <201 <201

I have nearly ALL... . ALL...Bolts and Nuts replaced by metric size and SS V2 on the engine and as far as possible on the all bike.

the only place the SS is making trouble is the rear wheel, say the short spokes.
but you have to treat it as required.

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by hwan » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:27 am

WeirdTim - exactly !

The stuff we used to coat all SS (and titanium, which has the same cold-weld/galling problems) threads, of whatever grade was MOLYCOTE - a white PTFE/MOLY based none-metallic paste - also food safe as we also supplied some equipment to the food industry.

As chemical equipment manufacturers we always had to bear in mind corrosion and contamination issues.

Interestingly all the equipment we supplied to the Potash and Oil-industry was low carbon steel, not SS (although we did supply titanium machines to Death Valley Power station which supply's Las Vegas with electricary) - due to effect of chlorines (salts) have on the integrity of the SS - even at temperatures as low as the North Sea.....

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by BSA_WM20 » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:28 am

WeirdTim wrote:Whenever I use stainless into aluminum, the stainless threads get coated with Bel Ray Assembly Lube because of how thick it is and how much moly it has in it. The last thing I'd want to do is introduce ANOTHER metal (copper or aluminum) in threads that are being compressed. Really think the main goal is to remove all air from in between the threads and that can probably be achieved many different ways.

Just an opinion that has worked very well riding my old Moto Guzzi through the winter road salt, rain and even some sunshine here in Wisconsin.
Air is fine.
Water is the enemy, well to be accurate any liquid that can conduct electricity and form a galvanic cell
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Re: stainless bolts

Post by BSA_WM20 » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:32 am

hwan wrote:WeirdTim - exactly !

The stuff we used to coat all SS (and titanium, which has the same cold-weld/galling problems) threads, of whatever grade was MOLYCOTE - a white PTFE/MOLY based none-metallic paste - also food safe as we also supplied some equipment to the food industry.

As chemical equipment manufacturers we always had to bear in mind corrosion and contamination issues.

Interestingly all the equipment we supplied to the Potash and Oil-industry was low carbon steel, not SS (although we did supply titanium machines to Death Valley Power station which supply's Las Vegas with electricary) - due to effect of chlorines (salts) have on the integrity of the SS - even at temperatures as low as the North Sea.....
Corrosion happens at all temperatures above absolute zero, it just gets faster the higher the temperature.
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Re: stainless bolts

Post by Mark Cook » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:34 pm

Has anyone thought of using Castrol R as a thread lubricant? :lol: <216
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Re: stainless bolts

Post by Nambo » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:25 am

I have exclusively used Dave Middletons stainless fasteners on all my bikes since 1978, never had problem, I use one of my bikes to get to work every day of the year in London's perpetual wet salt, never found a corroded alloy thread, I even use them as head bolts on my highly tuned Combat engined Commando. They are expensive but you do get what you pay for.

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by Canberra » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:19 pm

So obviously no-one else uses a torque wrench to tighten the SS screws into the cases? How many of you have got hold of an old B50 engine and not had problems undoing the case screws as the standard Philips head plated version weld themselves into the alloy and as they are so much softer than SS they are impossible to remove without butchering the head and/or the alloy thread. Give me good quality SS cap heads any day and no I just make sure the threads are clean and I torque them up. Maybe the engine doesn't stay together long enough to corrode. A B50 is made to be used, not sat for years doing nothing in the open air or used as a boat.

If I use SS nuts on a SS screw it is not good without a lubricant unless you're after a weld tight finish. I used to assemble bakery equipment and all we used was a non oil/metal based coating with food grade 316 fasteners. Many fasteners being nylon.

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Re: stainless bolts

Post by Jeff K » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:32 pm

I personally have also used Middleton's fine products on a Norton 850 and I used copper anti-seize on them. A local company here that uses SS hardware just tumble coats them with floor wax before assembly.
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Re: stainless bolts

Post by minetymenace » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:35 pm

I fear this is going to be another oil debate.....
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Re: stainless bolts

Post by hwan » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:36 pm

M&M - like oil I'm finished, a thread going nowhere...

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