441 Victor resurection

Here you can talk about all kind of TECH for the B50 B44 B25 And Other BSA unit Singles

Moderator: minetymenace

User avatar
Winsur44
>60
>60
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:30 am
Location: Buda, TX
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Flag: United States of America

441 Victor resurection

Post by Winsur44 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:25 pm

I have finally officially retired, at 71 from Siemens. Cleaning up the shop, and starting to get back into wrenching. A good friend brought me his BSA Victor 441 to get running. He purchased it 10 years ago and parked it. It ran, but poorly, especially at 3/4 throttle where it bogged down and would not go over 40=45 MPH.
1. I pulled the carb and found it was a 928 with a 220 Main Jet. when I removed the jet, it broke off in the Main Jet holder. Wrong carb, wrong jet from what I see in other forums, and a jet that had corrosion in the needle jet assembly. Additionally, the slide was sticking at just below half throttle.
2. I checked compression, which seemed low, but I am not used to kick start compression tests. The most I could get to register was 90 PSI. I checked the valve clearance, checked the Compression Release operation, and poured light oil on top of the valves to test for leakage. All was well. The valves were loose, so a set them .008 and .006.
3. I installed a JRC PMW 30 that I bought for experimental purposes. It fit fine, has a 140 jet. It started once, but that was it. It revved nicely, but I shut it off as I was using a remote gas tank. Has anyone tried the JRC carbs? Any opinions?
4. I went through my scrap pile and I built up a 930 carb with a 230 jet and installed it.
5. Tickled the float, pulled in the compression release and kicked i through 4 times, set it just past TDC and kicked, repeated, repeated and repeated. It almost started once.

Question:
What next? I can't expect my leg to last forever.
Association does not prove the cause
USNOA 2062
75 Commando
74 R90R/6
74 R90S
72 Ducati 250
72 BSA B50SS B50 Cafe
72 BSA B50T
08 V*trom 1000
67 Hond* S90
74 Triumph TR50MX
Piles of 250 parts and rolling chassis.
06 S*zuki DRZ 400
73 Triumph 500 T5TR

Jeff K
>1300
>1300
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:30 pm
Location: Bay City, Michigan USA
Has thanked: 54 times
Been thanked: 25 times
Flag: United States of America

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Jeff K » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:03 pm

If you have compression and spark and you suspect the Carburetor. Here is a old trick. Give it a squirt of WD40 either in the spark plug hole or open the throttle spray down the intake. It will start up, it is easier then starting fluid on the motor and many times once it runs a bit it will clear out the problem.
Jeff
These users thanked the author Jeff K for the post:
Winsur44 (Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:58 pm)
Rating: 25%

User avatar
Winsur44
>60
>60
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:30 am
Location: Buda, TX
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Flag: United States of America

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Winsur44 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:51 pm

B44 Electronic Ignition.jpg
Does anyone recognize the EI unit above?
I am thinking back, and maybe I did 1 or 2 things before it started.
1. While checking compression, I added some Amsoil Engine Fogging Oil to see if I could raise the compression. I have also sprayed B12 as a starter fluid. Maybe the Amsoil raised the compression. I just tried this again, and no luck.
2. I charged the battery to keep up the voltage for the Electronic Ignition above 12V. I know some EIs are very sensitive to voltage.

I tried the WD40 spray just now, but no luck. With the throttle wide open and the compression release on, I get a nice blue flame out the carb on precisely the 4 kick. This has happened more than once. I assume the Electronic Ignition fires on compression and exhaust and the backfire is coming after the exhaust is closing/closed. I also went back and measured the compression using a better kicking technique. I got 120psi, which is good enough. I guess I should get out my lift and get the back wheel off the ground and check the static timing. I see no reason to think the timing changed since the last time it ran, but I might as well look.
Association does not prove the cause
USNOA 2062
75 Commando
74 R90R/6
74 R90S
72 Ducati 250
72 BSA B50SS B50 Cafe
72 BSA B50T
08 V*trom 1000
67 Hond* S90
74 Triumph TR50MX
Piles of 250 parts and rolling chassis.
06 S*zuki DRZ 400
73 Triumph 500 T5TR

User avatar
kommando
>1400
>1400
Posts: 1971
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 8:41 pm
Location: Scotland
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 52 times
Flag: Ireland

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by kommando » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:41 am

That looks like the Boyer ignition setup. It's wasted spark so fired every 360 degrees. The timing goes off with low battery voltage or a corroded connector including earth path.

User avatar
koncretekid
>900
>900
Posts: 934
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:22 am
Location: Yarmouth, Nova Scotia
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 26 times
Flag: Canada

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by koncretekid » Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:08 pm

Sometimes the bolt that holds the ignition rotor on its taper is too long which allows the rotor to move. If you take the ignition stator off, try to move the rotor. If it moves, that's the problem.
Tom
life's uncertain - go fast now

User avatar
minetymenace
Gerry1
Gerry1
Posts: 7717
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 1:00 am
Location: On the edge of Salisbury Plain, England
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 97 times
Flag: England
Contact:

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by minetymenace » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:56 pm

Redundant sperk? Would expect that with the pickup on the cam shaft there should be no redundant spark, unless you have two pickups....
Winsur44 wrote:check the static timing
Yep, that's the one.
There is no evidence to support the notion that life is serious.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.

skippy
>1400
>1400
Posts: 1487
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:25 am
Location: Horsham Vic Australia
Has thanked: 58 times
Been thanked: 14 times
Flag: Australia

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by skippy » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:50 pm

2 pickup coils 1 magnet = 2 sparks per rotation. When kicking the first detection livens up the electronic if it has gone to sleep, the second fires the plug.
These users thanked the author skippy for the post:
minetymenace (Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:09 pm)
Rating: 25%
Doug
Should never have sold them old motorbikes

User avatar
kommando
>1400
>1400
Posts: 1971
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 8:41 pm
Location: Scotland
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 52 times
Flag: Ireland

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by kommando » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:10 pm

Its 2 pickup coils and 2 magnets, same for both the singles and twins, the Boyer box is also the same so fully wasted spark in singles and twins. The electronics averages the 2 signals so guaranteeing a 360 degree gap between sparks unlike 2 sets of points points, great for twins but not needed for singles with one set of points.

The Boyer box as per all the EI's does go to sleep after a few seconds so if you accidentally leave the ignition on your box and/or coils do not burn out. The wake up is different, Boyer analogue only needs one sweep of the coils by the magnet above 60 rpm to give a spark, the analogue Pazon needs 2 sweeps and has a disclaimer on its website recommending its digital version for large highly compressed singles. Just fit a MK4 Boyer at half the price and the low voltage issue is fixed on that version too.

skippy
>1400
>1400
Posts: 1487
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:25 am
Location: Horsham Vic Australia
Has thanked: 58 times
Been thanked: 14 times
Flag: Australia

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by skippy » Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:40 pm

I have never gotten the pazon thing. They work with no problem on a B50 If you use correct starting procedure. Just the same as people say they are hard to kick over, it is easier than my 250 kawa.
Doug
Should never have sold them old motorbikes

Canberra
>1200
>1200
Posts: 1294
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:45 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 14 times
Flag: Australia
Contact:

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Canberra » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:45 am

No 2 - same. Must be starting technique or state of ignition coil.

User avatar
gunnag
>760
>760
Posts: 766
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:32 am
Location: farnham surrey
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 3 times
Flag: Great Britain

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by gunnag » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:46 pm

I'm using a JRC 28 carb on my B44 and it works well, one advantage is that it has a separate choke circuit so starting is a bit easier.

I'm wondering if your Amal 930 has a blocked idle circuit, which as you probably know is a common problem, so may be worth cleaning out. Also worth checking the throttle cable has sufficient slack and that the slide is bottoming. Maybe the carb is slightly oversized and the low compression isnt generating sufficient suction. Perhaps swap back to the JRC and run for a few hundred miles, compression may improve.

A few other tricks to try are a new plug, fresh fuel, electrical connections, battery etc.

User avatar
Winsur44
>60
>60
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:30 am
Location: Buda, TX
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Flag: United States of America

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Winsur44 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:28 am

Thanks,
I am thinking maybe the connection for the EI May be poor. Or, the magnets are weak. There is no spark when I turn on the ignition. I have pretty much done all the things you suggested. I am camping at Big Bend this week, and will trouble shoot the EI when I return.
Association does not prove the cause
USNOA 2062
75 Commando
74 R90R/6
74 R90S
72 Ducati 250
72 BSA B50SS B50 Cafe
72 BSA B50T
08 V*trom 1000
67 Hond* S90
74 Triumph TR50MX
Piles of 250 parts and rolling chassis.
06 S*zuki DRZ 400
73 Triumph 500 T5TR

hhh
>440
>440
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:34 pm
Location: British Columbia
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Flag: Canada

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by hhh » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:58 am

kommando wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:10 pm
Its 2 pickup coils and 2 magnets, same for both the singles and twins, the Boyer box is also the same so fully wasted spark in singles and twins. The electronics averages the 2 signals so guaranteeing a 360 degree gap between sparks ...
Actually, there's only one signal because the pickup coils are wired in series, so no averaging by the electronics. It's a very good design in that respect since eccentricity of engine cases, fastener drillings etc. is something most of us would expect.

User avatar
Winsur44
>60
>60
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:30 am
Location: Buda, TX
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Flag: United States of America

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Winsur44 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:59 am

Back working on the 441 today. Pulled the exhaust to remove dirt dauber nests. It is the stock muffler. It looks like there are solid plates at the front and the rear end of the stock muffler baffle. I hope the daubers cannot squeeze past the plates. If they can, there will be dauber nests where I cannot easily clean them out. I inspected and cleaned the ground wire off the battery to fram, as the ground wire was between the regulator and the tool box, a rather strange way to ground the battery. Static timing looked pretty good. It fires just past the mark. Not sure how many degrees but it looked about right. I have a Pazon new in the box. I may just install it and see what happens.
Association does not prove the cause
USNOA 2062
75 Commando
74 R90R/6
74 R90S
72 Ducati 250
72 BSA B50SS B50 Cafe
72 BSA B50T
08 V*trom 1000
67 Hond* S90
74 Triumph TR50MX
Piles of 250 parts and rolling chassis.
06 S*zuki DRZ 400
73 Triumph 500 T5TR

User avatar
Winsur44
>60
>60
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:30 am
Location: Buda, TX
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Flag: United States of America

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Winsur44 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:04 am

EI 2.jpg
Checked the static timing. Battery Voltage 12.65VDC.
1. I found TDC right after the Intake valve closed. Both valves closed.
2. I then turned on the ignition. The spark did not fire, which I believe it is supposed to do.
3. I then rolled the engine back using the rear tire and rolled it forward, then back again several times.
4. It fired intermittently when I rolled the engine forward past TDC looking like it is firing a few degrees before TDC
5. I then kicked it through with the kick starter, and I can see fire, but not 100% of the time. Each kick usually fires several times.

With everything together I can tickle the carb, then kick it through with the throttle wide open and the compression release compressed. On the 4th kick it will backfire with a flame coming out the carburetor. It has done this several times when I am trying to clear what I suspect is a flooding condition. I have done this many times with my B50 and got kickbacks, but no back fire. I am beginning to wonder if the magnets are weak. I will pull them tomorrow and see if they are strong enough to hang on a screwdriver. Pictures show the rotor and the magnets at TDC.
Attachments
E1.jpg
Association does not prove the cause
USNOA 2062
75 Commando
74 R90R/6
74 R90S
72 Ducati 250
72 BSA B50SS B50 Cafe
72 BSA B50T
08 V*trom 1000
67 Hond* S90
74 Triumph TR50MX
Piles of 250 parts and rolling chassis.
06 S*zuki DRZ 400
73 Triumph 500 T5TR

User avatar
minetymenace
Gerry1
Gerry1
Posts: 7717
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 1:00 am
Location: On the edge of Salisbury Plain, England
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 97 times
Flag: England
Contact:

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by minetymenace » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:18 am

How have you established TDC?
Do not trust the marks on the alternator rotor unless you have checked them, a peg in the TDC setting hole or a degree wheel associated with something down the plug hole are the only ways of doing it.

Just a thought, a significant difference between Trumpet twins and Beesa singles is that the points cams rotate in different directions. If you have fitted a Trumpet ignition in error, it will automatically retard rather than advance.

Firing through the carb has to be the redundant spark, and would indicate (not confirm) the ignition too far retarded as firing on the induction stroke would be equivilent to firing on the power stroke (rather than the compression stroke, yes I know the inlet opens on the exhaust stroke, but you would expect it to fire mostly out of the exhaust with a redundant spark...I think...)
There is no evidence to support the notion that life is serious.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.

User avatar
koncretekid
>900
>900
Posts: 934
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:22 am
Location: Yarmouth, Nova Scotia
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 26 times
Flag: Canada

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by koncretekid » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:34 pm

"With everything together I can tickle the carb, then kick it through with the throttle wide open and the compression release compressed. On the 4th kick it will backfire"

I'm not sure I'm interpreting your procedure correctly, but the compression release is to be used only to get the motor past top dead center. Your statement implies that you are kicking while holding the "compression release compressed." After the motor just passes top dead center, let the kick arm return to full up position and kick without pulling in the compression release. Holding the compression released compressed, the motor will not start.

Tom
life's uncertain - go fast now

hhh
>440
>440
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:34 pm
Location: British Columbia
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Flag: Canada

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by hhh » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:58 pm

minetymenace wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:18 am
Just a thought, a significant difference between Trumpet twins and Beesa singles is that the points cams rotate in different directions. If you have fitted a Trumpet ignition in error, it will automatically retard rather than advance.
A Boyer can't recognize whether its rotor is turning clockwise or counter-clockwise. The Boyers for Triumphs and BSAs are the same. The difference is the position of the rotor for static timing is opposite so that it is approaching the pickups before TDC in each case. If you get that part backwards, you will have severely advanced ignition. Also, reversing the wires to the stator plate will move the ignition about 60 degrees out and it will retard with increasing RPM.

User avatar
minetymenace
Gerry1
Gerry1
Posts: 7717
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 1:00 am
Location: On the edge of Salisbury Plain, England
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 97 times
Flag: England
Contact:

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by minetymenace » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:46 pm

hhh wrote:Also, reversing the wires to the stator plate will move the ignition about 60 degrees out and it will retard with increasing RPM.
That sounds possible, back to basics I think, check the TDC make a new static timing mark and set up again......
There is no evidence to support the notion that life is serious.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.

hhh
>440
>440
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:34 pm
Location: British Columbia
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Flag: Canada

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by hhh » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:09 pm

Tried to edit my post above because I realized I should've written "advanced" instead of "retarded" but the board insisted on making a new post with the edit for some reason.

Don't know what happened there, but edited it for you :) mm

User avatar
Winsur44
>60
>60
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:30 am
Location: Buda, TX
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Flag: United States of America

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Winsur44 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:13 am

I downloaded the BB EI instructions. The original installation was wrong from my reading. It looks like the timing was set to TDC, not 28 degrees before TDC as per the instructions. I am helping a friend to get this back running. He purchased this 10 years ago and parked it when it would only go 45 MPH. I reset the timing, to the static setting of 28 degrees Before TDC, but it still will not start and backfires if I tickle it and kick it over with the throttle wide open. I have a good battery, and I cleaned all the connections to ground. I may swipe out the Pazon I have for my B50 and see if it works.
EI 2.jpg
EI at 28 deg BTDC (2).jpg
Association does not prove the cause
USNOA 2062
75 Commando
74 R90R/6
74 R90S
72 Ducati 250
72 BSA B50SS B50 Cafe
72 BSA B50T
08 V*trom 1000
67 Hond* S90
74 Triumph TR50MX
Piles of 250 parts and rolling chassis.
06 S*zuki DRZ 400
73 Triumph 500 T5TR

User avatar
koncretekid
>900
>900
Posts: 934
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:22 am
Location: Yarmouth, Nova Scotia
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 26 times
Flag: Canada

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by koncretekid » Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:04 pm

The usual starting procedure is to flood the carb, turn the throttle stop in 1 turn (from previously set idle setting), and kick it with the throttle closed. Because you don't know the correct idle setting, start with the throttle fully closed and then open it just a hair (a Guitar E string should be about right, just set it so you can slide the E string under the back of the throttle valve (all the way thru the carb). Then gradually increase the throttle stop screw 1/2 turn at a time, but don't touch the throttle when kicking it over.

Tom
life's uncertain - go fast now

User avatar
minetymenace
Gerry1
Gerry1
Posts: 7717
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 1:00 am
Location: On the edge of Salisbury Plain, England
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 97 times
Flag: England
Contact:

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by minetymenace » Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:32 pm

OK, I've hear of Air on a G String (aka the second movement in Johann Sebastian Bach's Orchestral Suite No. 3 in D major), and have once or twice got my tongue round a hair on a G String, but for those of you who do not possess such musical or carnal knowledge, a guitar E string is about 10 thou.......
There is no evidence to support the notion that life is serious.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.

hhh
>440
>440
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:34 pm
Location: British Columbia
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Flag: Canada

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by hhh » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:50 pm

If you're going to use a guitar E string as a thickness spec, it'd be wise to specify high or low, then at least you'd be in the ballpark. But of course, even then, several gauges are available for each. A high E can vary from 0.010" to 0.013".

User avatar
Winsur44
>60
>60
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:30 am
Location: Buda, TX
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Flag: United States of America

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Winsur44 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:21 am

LOL. I have played guitar for 50+ years, and I am quite familiar with the strings. Thanks for the information.

Also kicking as best I can only gets 90 psi compression. Is that enough to start? I have a 650 Triumph that starts first kick, and it shows 105psi and runs great. I recently put a Pazon EI on it with a new Mikuni carb. It is the sweetest TR6 I have ever driven. 90 on a multicylinder would usually mean a weak cylinder.
90PSI is all I get on my 250 Ducati, and it is starting and runs fine. I was going to get my neighbor to kick the B44 over while I looked at the timing with a timing light to be sure that it is firing on time. My brother, who is in a group home came and visited me two weeks ago has tested positive for COVID-19. Now I am quarantined. We will see where it goes. He left 5 days ago, so I have 9 more days of quarantine.
Association does not prove the cause
USNOA 2062
75 Commando
74 R90R/6
74 R90S
72 Ducati 250
72 BSA B50SS B50 Cafe
72 BSA B50T
08 V*trom 1000
67 Hond* S90
74 Triumph TR50MX
Piles of 250 parts and rolling chassis.
06 S*zuki DRZ 400
73 Triumph 500 T5TR

eebtr7
>200
>200
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:49 pm
Location: Texas USA
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by eebtr7 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:14 am

Well, Winsur44, as you are the owner of several B50's, you well know all about the starting idiosyncrasies of these machines. After 49 years, I do, too.

May I politely and respectfully suggest you return the B44 to the stock point ignition to get a baseline for subsequent modifications. This shouldn't take more than 30 minutes once you've dug the point plate and condenser from your parts stash.

Using the owners manual or the official shop manual, set the static timing. Hopefully, your alternator rotor is the original stock item and has not shifted on it's center. If it has, you will need to find TDC thru the notch on the flywheel accessed thru the hole on the front left crankcase. Once this is accomplished, use your timing light to achieve the correct in motion timing at full advance.

This all presupposes the engine started. If it hasn't and you haven't stroked out from all that kicking on the starter pedal, set the carburetor idle mixture screw at 1 to 1 1/2 turns out and the idle speed screw at about 3 1/2 turns out. These are preliminary settings that will need final adjustment once the engine is running at a normal operating temperature. Given this all takes place here in South Texas in July, it should be ready after about 12 seconds during the midmorning.

Now proceed to flail about on that kick starter again.

User avatar
koncretekid
>900
>900
Posts: 934
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:22 am
Location: Yarmouth, Nova Scotia
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 26 times
Flag: Canada

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by koncretekid » Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:31 am

The rotor loose on its hub is common. I just had to replace one yesterday. With all your bikes, I'll assume you have a front wheel chock. So put the front wheel in one and make sure it's stable and jack the rear wheel off the floor. Put the bike in 4th gear and take the spark plug out. Now rotate the rear wheel forward with your thumb over the spark plug hole until you feel compression. Then put a small screwdriver or pencil down the spark plug hole and continue rotating the rear wheel to find approximate TDC. Now look at the timing mark on the rotor relative to the pointer. The timing mark should have passed the pointer (counterclockwise) by about a 1/2". If it looks correct (still might be loose), then put the spark plug in the coil wire and lay it on the head surface and rotate the rear wheel forward again til it passes TDC and it should spark as it crosses it, even on exhaust stroke for electronic ignition. Ignition should be turned on of course, and I assume it has 12v. If you're not seeing a spark, something is wrong with the ignition circuit.

Sorry to hear you're in quarantine, but you're not welcome in Nova Scotia - - we have zero to one new case a day, and that's from people who have just entered the Province. I sure hope you get things under control down there, as we want to see our son, daughter, and three grandchildren again SOON!

As a side note, I gave up windsurfing about 5 years ago when my good friend passed away and most of the other windsurfers went kite surfing until one of them drown. Not much fun to go out by oneself. I still have them and actually went out once last year. Now I just stick to safer sports, like motorcycle racing!

Tom
life's uncertain - go fast now

User avatar
minetymenace
Gerry1
Gerry1
Posts: 7717
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 1:00 am
Location: On the edge of Salisbury Plain, England
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 97 times
Flag: England
Contact:

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by minetymenace » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:29 pm

Like eebtr7's suggestion about putting points back in, was going to suggest it but you beat me to it.
There is no evidence to support the notion that life is serious.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.

User avatar
Winsur44
>60
>60
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:30 am
Location: Buda, TX
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Flag: United States of America

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Winsur44 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:39 am

Well, the old saying that I live by proved true tonight.
95% of all carb problems are electrical
95% of all electrical problems are carburation. The B44 had both.
Seems I should have stuck by the JRC carb instead of my Amal built from scraps.
I got to thinking about how the bike started once with the JRC carb. Afterward I could not start it again, so I went back to the Amal. I put the Amal on to keep the jetting correct and afterward found that the Boyer Bransdsen EI was setup by the previous owner at TDC. I downloaded the BB EI instruction manual and found it should be statically at full 28 degrees advanced Before TDC.

Tonight, I changed back to The JRC, and it started right up. Not sure I want to use the JRC carb as it likely will be too rich to start on a cold day using the enrichment valve. An Amal will look better, too. I did set the slide on the JRC using the Guitar E string method. It worked great. Even a small opening of the throttle keeps the B44 from starting. At 92 degrees at 10:00 PM, it did not need enrichment to start. The timing looks good at full advance, but at Idle it barely retards, it looks like maybe back to 10, maybe 15 degrees Before TDC. I will check it in the morning, as I have a Snap On Timing and advance light that can tell me exactly what the timing is at idle.

It does start easily and revs nicely. there is a little pop on deceleration like it might be jetted a bit lean. I will play with the pilot adjustment, too. Now to clean it up. It is covered with dirt dauber nests.
Nothing succeeds like success.
Association does not prove the cause
USNOA 2062
75 Commando
74 R90R/6
74 R90S
72 Ducati 250
72 BSA B50SS B50 Cafe
72 BSA B50T
08 V*trom 1000
67 Hond* S90
74 Triumph TR50MX
Piles of 250 parts and rolling chassis.
06 S*zuki DRZ 400
73 Triumph 500 T5TR

User avatar
minetymenace
Gerry1
Gerry1
Posts: 7717
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 1:00 am
Location: On the edge of Salisbury Plain, England
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 97 times
Flag: England
Contact:

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by minetymenace » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:18 am

<200
There is no evidence to support the notion that life is serious.
Abyssinian Wire-Haired Tripehounds Gnash.

bbenxe
>60
>60
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:00 pm
Location: Bristol, UK
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 1 time
Flag: Great Britain

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by bbenxe » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:39 pm

Glad you've got it going. I use a 32mm JRC PWK on my B50 in MX spec and it works very well.
'71 BSA B50 street scrambler, '75 Bultaco 250 flat tracker racing as #404 in the UK DTRA National and European series

User avatar
Winsur44
>60
>60
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:30 am
Location: Buda, TX
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Flag: United States of America

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Winsur44 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:07 am

Well, I got my next surprise.

Whilst pulling off the primary cover to clean up the clutch plates I discovered that the footrest bracket needed to be removed. I did not use all that much torque, but it stripped the threads on the foot rest stud. They were likely already stripped. No biggie I had 2 spare old frames, so I went over to remove a stud, and I began a futile searched my toolbox to find my nutcracker. (I hope that does not get censored.) The frame was pretty rusty, so I sprayed some penetrating oil and later attempted to remove the stud. It moved a bit and locked up. I reversed the ratchet to "rock the nut back and forth. That is when I discovered it was a left handed thread - on both ends. This is the height of insanity. Looking at this monstrosity I can only wonder what it cost to engineer and make a 2 inch stud with splines and 2 LH threads, one fine and one coarse to hold a footrest bracket. Mercy!

Surely there is a good backstory for this? This is about as logical as the 20" rims on the B50! BTW are there any usable 20" tyres available? I love running the old Pirelli Universals.

I can hardly wait to see what surprises I will find when I rebuild the front end.

Jeff K
>1300
>1300
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:30 pm
Location: Bay City, Michigan USA
Has thanked: 54 times
Been thanked: 25 times
Flag: United States of America

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Jeff K » Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:50 pm

The first time that I had heard that " 95% of all carburetor problems is electrical" was close to 50 years ago. Donny Hawley the long gone mechanic at the also long gone Triumph Dealer, Saginaw Cycle Sales told me that. And all through the years I can not tell you how often that he was still correct!
Jeff

User avatar
Winsur44
>60
>60
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:30 am
Location: Buda, TX
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times
Flag: United States of America

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Winsur44 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:04 pm

I am not sure where I got that saying from, as it goes back to when I was a teenager shopping at "Big D Cycle" in Oak Cliff or South Dallas as some call it. Big D was jointly owned by Jack Wilson and Pete Dalio. Pete never did small talk, but Jack was incredibly nice, and often gave me advice on how to keep my Daytona 500 running. So I will attribute it to him.
An interesting article about Jack:
https://oakcliff.advocatemag.com/2015/0 ... dquarters/

I was just a punk kid back then, but I did see and meet some of the people in the article. I remember when Rusty Bradley was killed in 1971, followed 2 weeks later by Bentley Hardwick, who was the son of Vernon Hardwick the local BSA dealer in Oak Cliff. Bentley was a close personal friend, having attended school with him. He could ride a B44 on one wheel more graceful than I could walk. He was killed at Alemda Speedway. A year or 2 before, he raced a BSA Triple as an amateur at Daytona. Both Bennie and Rusty were given their national numbers and died shortly afterward.
https://www.dairylandclassic.com/memorial.html#1970
These users thanked the author Winsur44 for the post:
Jeff K (Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:26 pm)
Rating: 25%

Jeff K
>1300
>1300
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:30 pm
Location: Bay City, Michigan USA
Has thanked: 54 times
Been thanked: 25 times
Flag: United States of America

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Jeff K » Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:29 pm

Interesting reading the the book "Save the Triumph Bonneville" on just how much influence that Big D had with the factory.
Jeff

Momus
>160
>160
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:44 pm
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 9 times
Flag: Australia

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Momus » Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:55 am

Winsur44 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:07 am
Well, I got my next surprise.

Whilst pulling off the primary cover to clean up the clutch plates I discovered that the footrest bracket needed to be removed. I did not use all that much torque, but it stripped the threads on the foot rest stud. They were likely already stripped. No biggie I had 2 spare old frames, so I went over to remove a stud, and I began a futile searched my toolbox to find my nutcracker. (I hope that does not get censored.) The frame was pretty rusty, so I sprayed some penetrating oil and later attempted to remove the stud. It moved a bit and locked up. I reversed the ratchet to "rock the nut back and forth. That is when I discovered it was a left handed thread - on both ends. This is the height of insanity. Looking at this monstrosity I can only wonder what it cost to engineer and make a 2 inch stud with splines and 2 LH threads, one fine and one coarse to hold a footrest bracket. Mercy!

Surely there is a good backstory for this? This is about as logical as the 20" rims on the B50! BTW are there any usable 20" tyres available? I love running the old Pirelli Universals.

I can hardly wait to see what surprises I will find when I rebuild the front end.
Engineers and draughtsmen spent a lot of time in the rubbidy. Cleaners covered for them or so my Small Heath informant told me
If you love it, lube it.

User avatar
SteveS
>560
>560
Posts: 560
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:28 pm
Location: Nuneaton, Warks. U.K.
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 15 times
Flag: England

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by SteveS » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:27 am

I've always assumed that the left hand thread on the stud was to stop it unwinding from the pressure of the riders foot on the foot peg. I suppose they could have fitted tab washers both ends but what they came up with works but tends to catch out the unwary punter who hasn't read his instruction manual. The nut is stamped LH but is probably not visible under a layer of paint and grime. The part is a carry over from the earlier C15 (circa 1958) and maybe some earlier pre unit models(?)

Not sure why the 20" front wheel came about. The same was said about the 17" wheels on the C15, but now the majority of the superbikes seem to use that size. May be it's just the fashion at the time? I use a block tread Ensign Universal on the front of my B50
These users thanked the author SteveS for the post:
Winsur44 (Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:22 am)
Rating: 25%
Steve Sewell

Canberra
>1200
>1200
Posts: 1294
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:45 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 14 times
Flag: Australia
Contact:

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Canberra » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:49 am

Knowing BSA it was a way of getting rid of 20 inch stock on hand. Not sure which other BSA models came out with 20 inch. Nothing mentioned on the website but are the tyres road rated?

John

User avatar
SteveS
>560
>560
Posts: 560
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:28 pm
Location: Nuneaton, Warks. U.K.
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 15 times
Flag: England

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by SteveS » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:23 am

Hi John

Just checked the tyre but don't see any E or DoT accreditation so may not be road legal :cry: I need to source another block tread 3.00x20 for my WDB40 at some point. Not sure what route to take now
Steve Sewell

Jeff K
>1300
>1300
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:30 pm
Location: Bay City, Michigan USA
Has thanked: 54 times
Been thanked: 25 times
Flag: United States of America

Re: 441 Victor resurection

Post by Jeff K » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:26 pm

Is this the 20" tire that you are using?
https://www.universaltire.com/motorcycl ... -tire.html

How do you like? I have three of the 1971 250's that have the 20" front and I only have one NOS spare tire left. Most people that I know will relace the wheel to either 19" or 21". I think the stock choice was 18" or 20" on the 71 250's depending on the model.
Jeff

Post Reply