Dying B50 (when hot)

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Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by Canberra »

My bike is dying.

Every time it gets hot it starts backfiring, coughs, splutters and runs what appears to be retarded. It has been doing it for some time now and all I seem to be doing is getting back home on a trailer :( . I recently replaced the coil with a high power one from Tri-spark (big healthy spark) and tried changing the plug and lead. The coil earth is good and all the leads checked OK. I even disconnected the alternator to make sure it wasn't earthing there and ran it on the good battery but all to no avail. I have a Pazon ignition and I will send it back for him to check, although I have been trying to eliminate any other cause.

Problem is that when cold the bike starts perfectly and runs like a dream from anything between 10 and 80 kms before it starts playing up. Carb appears good (not that old and a Mk2). It does appear to run at tick over even when it starts failing until eventually spluttering to a stop.

I have lost faith in the bike :( and looking for any suggestions <201 for additional checks.

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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by minetymenace »

its not the carb getting hot is it John?
There is no evidence to support the notion that life is serious.
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by midgie »

have you checked valve clearances? regards midgie
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by beat »

hi John,
- checked the drainplug under the carbis bowl ?
- is it clean? no sediments ore waterdrops in the fuel ?
- what abouth fuel Tank venting ?
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by skippy »

It takes time for the component to warm up and cause trouble you could try a heat gun on the ignition module to advance the process. I assume the coil was changed after the trouble started which eliminates that problem.
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by Canberra »

Carb:
I have stripped the carb down and checked the fuel quality - all OK. I thought it may have been vent or fuel starvation but when it occurs I took the tank filler cap off and turned the reserve tap on. Tank has been relatively full so should be enough head. I tried running the bike when it played up and the engine did get very hot and evaporated fuel in the carb. I tried dropping the fuel using drain plug and refilling on one occassion but no effect and the fuel was clean.

Coil:
Didn't look round in the body and it was old but tested OK (car type) so replaced it with a better Tri-spark sourced bike coil for an update anyway. Still no effect.

Plug and lead:
Sat on side of road and changed to a new plug - no effect. Separately had a new plug/coil lead so replaced that - no effect.

Valve clearance:
I run chrome/moly pushrods with 2 and 4 clearance and have done for a few years with no problems. I have to admit I will check whether clearance has changed for some reason. (TBC).

Pazon:
Checked all wiring and connectors - all good apart from one loose connector that I replaced. Earth leads have good connectivity. I have run through tests from Pazon and nothing stands out. Only thought is to get it checked as per their offer.

Thanks for the comments.

John
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by minetymenace »

Canberra wrote:I tried running the bike when it played up and the engine did get very hot and evaporated fuel in the carb
Its summer down under, and this problem exacerbates itself.........go on John, once you have checked the valve gaps,energise your deflector shields
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by skippy »

After all that I would be blaming the ignition module.
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by beat »

Hmmmmm John, - you are making me thinking.... <017 ......
one thing is shure: it is a real B50 :!: :!: <946 <124
Canberra wrote: the engine did get very hot
ATU stucking in wrong position ?? ( if there is any fitted by your Ignition system.... )
pay attention by checking this : twisting the lobbe by the fingers do NOT say it is working by RPM`s !
if fully electronic shitstem fitted, - is there timing advancing ???
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by Canberra »

Andy at Pazon checked my system although I had bought a new one for the B50T and tried it on the bike and yes it broke down again :( .

I stripped Carb, cleaned it twice put filters in the lines and flushed out the tank and it still broke down.

Went for a run with a friend following in a car/trailer. It ran OK like a dream for 35 kms out to see a guy who races B44, B5's on track. Came back in warm weather in the afternoon and it lasted 9 kms but my friend said when it started playing up the lights started going on and off. Finally a win - it's definitely electrical problem :ban . Stripped the full wiring loom and no real problem so only left with ignition switch and the solid state sparxs regulator. I'm suspecting the latter as it seems to be heat related.

Will confirm later.

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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by steve m »

hi John,
did the "new"- read - different(?), coil come from a bike that has been recently ridden for some distance in hot weather?
also, in the past i have had an earthing problem that only appeared when the engine was hot (like: marginal is ok, until something changes :roll: ).
HTH.

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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by minetymenace »

The sparx regulator should work up to 100C! (and IMHO are very reliable)...if this failed, you would not get a charge, so you would be running total loss electrical system. Can/have you measure(d) the battery voltage when you conk out? Does it pick up again if you turn the lights out when it starts to conk?
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by skippy »

Haven't got trouble with the kill switch. It defenently sounds like an open CCT somewhere.
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by Canberra »

Lights on or off have no effect on the running when it starts playing up. The coil is brand new ex tri-spark and the bike still has the same problem before I fitted it so can eliminate that. The battery has good charge so the charging system works and I ran the bike for a while with the alternator disconnected and it still failed.

I would expect that if it was kill switch it should stop the engine but the engine still runs although it coughs and splutters when you open the throttle and will not rev. It feels retarded although occasionally it will rev then back to cough and splutter. I will strip the handlebar switches down to check them.

I'm wondering if the diodes inside the rectifier/regulator are failing when hot and partially earthing. Members of the M/C club I am in say that they have had these regulators fail but it is rare. I checked when I bought and fitted this regulator and it was 7 years and many thousands of kms ago.

We had meters to check the bike but it was so obvious it was partial failing in the electrics we didn't take any readings. The loom was first check in case it is moving in some way and partially earthing out but so far wires and connectors are good.

I cannot pin point anything that I changed before the bike started playing up.
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by minetymenace »

John, you say it fails when running on battery, if you disconnect the regulator (just one side, not the ground) I think it will still fail thus confirming the Rec/reg is OK. Diodes normaly fail permanent open circuit (sometimes permanent short), virtualy never do they turn into resistors.

When you tested the nishion, did you change the pick-up as well?

With the forum member's help, and your time and money, you will have it fixed in no time!
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by roadplough »

Canberra wrote:when it started playing up the lights started going on and off.
Worn or faulty ignition switch?

To pinpoint errant electrical phenomena run the bike at night, wait for the problem to occur again then in darkness look for a phantom blue glow.
If it's not emanating from the bike, run away quick :uhu
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by beat »

hi John,
can you add the Voltmeter for permanent using just on the feedside of the Ignition and go for a ride agayn?
fixating it on top of the tank will make it readable wheilst problem occures.
if Voltage never drops, your fault needs to be in the ignitions electronic somewhere.
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by minetymenace »

good shout beat, Duck tape and Fluke! :thumb
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by beat »

minetymenace wrote:and Fluke
NO FLUKE :!: :!: :!:
anything else, - from Woolworth to the Thongue, - just not Fluke :!: :!:
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by skippy »

Hi John
On my bike I have an insulation displacement connector on the power wire to the ignition switch with a light to tell me when the power is switched on if you had a connector you could connect you meter to it and check the voltage to the ignition.
remember that it will retard if the voltage drops at the ignition module, which can be caused by a vibrating open cct or a high resistance dry joint or a vibrating short cct. Heat expands things and can change how they connect. Don't rule out the kill switch or ignition switch both can fall into these categories.
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by steve m »

John,
have you tried running the bike up to stinking hot in the driveway to see if it's heat related only. if nothing happens then it may be a vibration issue or both. might save trailer call out. <201

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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by Canberra »

Thanks, some more trials. Bit too hot to go anywhere (39 today :shock: ) but will try something else when I get a chance to go again with my friends assistance hopefully over the weekend.

Gerry - I replaced pickup and black box. Unlike the Boyer the Pazon will still run off low voltage so it may be a case that the voltage drop is the case. The bike will still tick over like a train when it fails but has trouble revving, just coughs and splutters with occasional rev fooling me into making me think it has cleared itself.

I had a wire ready to run directly from the battery but all that tells me is the failure is in the bike's circuit somewhere. The failure is not a dead short or the bike would just fail 100%.

I will pull switches apart as much as possible looking for blackened contacts before I go much further and recheck everything in the loom again before putting everything back together. The switches are off T140 so may not be able to pull completely apart. I should be able to check the soldered connections in the switches.

Thanks guys.
John
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by beat »

John, as you have checked carbi twice ore more: have you tried to run it witouth airfilter?
just to be shure it is not a " kink Rubber ",- as others have had it .....
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by steve m »

Canberra wrote:The bike will still tick over like a train when it fails but has trouble revving, just coughs and splutters with occasional rev
back to the carbie now, sounds like fuel starvation. but could still be the new coil. new doesn't mean good, unfortunately. and they can give a healthy spark, right up to failure, that's why they can be a real bu99er :roll:

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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by HPbyStan »

John, I think you should remove anything that was ever used on a Triumph and you'll be good to go.
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by Canberra »

Couple of comments. The failure has given same result each time.

Old coil/new coil, same result (doubt if the new one has identical fault as original);
Old Pazon ignition system/new same system, same result;
Old spark plug/new plug, same result;
Old HT lead/new lead, same result;
Fresh fuel in cleaned tank, same result;
New fuel filters, same result;
Mk11 Carb does not have an air filter fitted; and
Engine has full compression so not mechanical like valve clearance.

I'll keep searching loom and switches. I am tempted to replace the ign switch as that has never been replaced and I cannot strip it down. Whatever the problem is I now reject carb/fuel and will concentrate on electrical where the failure is not a full earth or the bike would actually stop running. Too hot today even to work in the garage until it cools down.

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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by steve m »

Canberra wrote:Too hot today even to work in the garage until it cools down.
understand where you're coming from there John. i still haven't recovered from the "Island Classic". we have a lot more heat to come :cry:
Canberra wrote:doubt if the new one has identical fault as original
<201 i thought most of them do have the same fault.

kill switch, ignition switch, yup, potential suspects and good to verify they are ok
Canberra wrote:Whatever the problem is I now reject carb/fuel and will concentrate on electrical
'til you eliminate the electics; good idea. :thumb

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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by skippy »

Your right John the flickering lights are telling you it is electric. A techneque to fault finding is use a volt meter close to what you are testing then wriggle the wire, connector etc, with switches give them a good tap, sometimes this will show a fault eg a drop in voltage. Have fun, tomorrow it will be 44 degrees here and I have just got my bike back together and need to test it out.
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by Canberra »

What's the old saying - 90% of carb problems are electrical and 90% of electrical are carb. The hard part is actually knowing you're on the right track be it electrical or carb'!
I think most of tomorrow may be in a cinema in the cool!

We have had no real reason to get air-conditioning at home as it used to get to high 30s for a few days, now we seem to be talking about few weeks instead.

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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by Ian Hingley »

Will you lot please stop mentioning how bloody hot it is!

My garage is air conditioned - roof leaks and there's a massive gap all round the door.

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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by beat »

Ian Hingley wrote:My garage is air conditioned - roof leaks and there's a massive gap all round the door.
happy Ian, - mine is just outside under a bit a shelter from the rain....
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by B44R »

I have spent the past 6 weeks re-cycling a roller shutter door from work for my garage, replacing rotten wood on the sides, making an new bench, moving shelving and painting the floor, the end is in sight.
Teach me to buy a Rocket3 without space in the garage but the other half did invite it into the house!
It was cold outside!
It was cold outside!
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by beat »

B44R wrote:but the other half did invite it into the house!
means this as the other half is shurely the better half of you both :shock: :shock:
ore do I have a language problem??
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by minetymenace »

B44R, I just showed The Boss your picture and asked if I could bring my tripple into the house.

Following a brief but lively discussion, it was voted 3:1 that my garage should be turned into a room. I suggested the female occupants of this domicile should pay a personal visit on their own behalf to a taxidermist and now nobody is talking to me.

I'm off down the pub. :roll:
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by beat »

minetymenace wrote:I'm off down the pub.
and afterwards? - you going to put all the "Plunder " from your garage into the Van???? ---the Beast on the botom of it :?: :shock: :?:
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by skippy »

Ian Hingley wrote:Will you lot please stop mentioning how bloody hot it is!

My garage is air conditioned - roof leaks and there's a massive gap all round the door.

Ian
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by Jack Gifford »

minetymenace wrote: ... I suggested the female occupants of this domicile should pay a personal visit on their own behalf to a taxidermist...
Omigosh... :shock:
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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by Canberra »

Pulled RH handlebar switch apart. The kill switch is a off/on/off sliding arrangement and the soldered joints were ok but contacts could move in the insulation and short out. There was old gummy insulation tape around the wires but replaced that now with plastic sheath so that there is no chance the wires can touch. Did same with the headlight low/high beam slider. When the failure occurs switching lights on and off at the headlight or handlebar switches made any difference. That implies the lighting circuits should be OK.

I'll delve more anyway.

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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by steve m »

this is sounding very promising John. let's hope we have the smoking gun.

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Re: Dying B50 (when hot)

Post by Canberra »

The only problem is that the RH handlebar ignition switch is normally closed when operating, so even if the two wires touch they are only adhering to the NC. To earth out a wire must make contact with earth and I saw no evidence in the RH switch for any way it can earth out.

Will try the LH switch although that is only indicators, horn and pilot/headlight.

John
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