B50/44 Hybrid

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B44Claus
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B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Good evening guys,

A new project has commenced as I'm building up a B50 framed B44 engined hybrid from parts I've been collecting over some time. I will upload pictures of the stash of parts and of the build as it progresses.
The main lumps consists of a B50T frame and swinging arm that I collected from an acquaintance a couple of weeks ago. With it came a cracked rear mudguard, left footrest, shock absorbers, brake pedal, side stand and airbox. The good thing is that the frame doesn't appear to be damaged apart from the missing seat brackets and it came with an Alabama registration certificate which will enable me to obtain a registration here in DK.
The B44 engine is of an abandoned MX project I began many moons ago but sold ex engine 2 years ago. It's complete with rebuilt and renovated internals, details to follow.
I have wheels w. brakes, forks and yokes, front mudguard and a new seat is bought. Petrol tank and side covers are on the way from Holland.
Main parts I'm missing are battery carrier, rear light w. license plate holder, head light, instruments, rh footrest. Ignition and charging control systems must also be sourced.
This evening I'm trying to straighten the side stand:
stand1.JPG
Obviously it's bend and I will heat it with a gas torch before attempting to bend it back to shape but should it be completely straight? In the parts book it looks straight but is that correct?
stand3.JPG
Next in line is to clean the frame internally to get as much debris out from the main spine as possible to avoid damage to the engine.
Frame1.JPG
Any clever ideas how to do that? I found an older post where a frame is cleaned with a brush on a wire and by circulating gasoline with a drill pump. A bit risky with gasoline I think, - I might try kerosene.

More to follow.

Brgds,
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by Jeff K »

Yes, they were completely straight from the factory. Rarely found that way after someone has been kick starting the bike while it is on the side stand.
Here are two photos pf a new stand stand.
Jeff
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by Jeff K »

Try mineral spirits and a few BB's, shake hard and then drain. Repeat until the Mineral Spirits come out clean. Blow dry with compressed air. And count how many BBs you put in and keep shaking until you get that same number out. :mrgreen:
Jeff
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by Momus »

Why didn't the frame designer terminate the oil tank/spine at the B tubes and use a gallery plug to seal it?

A lot of extra space aft would have been realized as well.
If you love it, lube it.
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Momus,

Why don't you apply for as job a chief designer with BSA? I'm sure they can use your qualifications ;-)

Brgds,
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Hi Jeff,
Thanks for your responses. I tried to straighten the side stand today it wasn't entirely successful but at least far better than before. I'm cleaning the frame internals with gasoline and a control cable through the filler hole. It's the fourth filling with gasoline and it's just as dirty as the first when I pour it out.
You have to help me on BB's what is that?

Thanks & Brgds,
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Here are some pictures of the parts I have collected for building the B50/44 hybrid:
Parts1_.JPG
Parts2_.JPG
Parts3_.JPG
Parts4_.JPG
I forgot to include the seat which I bought new from Burton Bike Bits.

The engine internals aren't shown either as I didn't bother to empty all the boxes with parts.

When I receive the front seat bracket I can fit the seat and make up some replacements for the broken of side seat brackets and weld them in place.
I just discovered that the chainguard on my B44VS is from an OIF model, so I don't have to buy that <200 . But then I have to get a chainguard for my B44, - fortunately they are just back in stock with BBB :smile:

Have a nice evening all.

Brgds,
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by Jeff K »

B44Claus wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:16 pm Hi Jeff,
Thanks for your responses. I tried to straighten the side stand today it wasn't entirely successful but at least far better than before. I'm cleaning the frame internals with gasoline and a control cable through the filler hole. It's the fourth filling with gasoline and it's just as dirty as the first when I pour it out.
You have to help me on BB's what is that?

Thanks & Brgds,
Claus
Sorry, BB's are the small round pellets used in air powered BB guns. Very common in the USA, not sure if you have them where you are at. Try spraying or pouring in Carburetor cleaner and let it stay in over night, then pour it out. It is made to dissolve build up.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Daisy-Precis ... t/15729970

British Bike parts still has new side stands if you need one.

https://www.britishbikebits.com/side-st ... iumph-tr5t

Jeff
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by BasilF »

Or ball bearings!
B44Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Spending Sunday evening in the garage cleaning the frame internals with gasoline and poking with a wire through the filling nozzle resulted in a clean frame(I hope). The last two fillings with gasoline came out clean so I guess it is as good as it gets.
Next job is to weld new seat brackets to the frame... wait, - perhaps I should flush the frame with hot water first to avoid an explosion :shock:
Yesterday I almost set the house on fire <939 when I used the weed burner to heat the side stand before bending it back to shape... My wife wasn't happy when she saw the sooted ceiling in the workshop.
Pellets for the air guns we can buy looks like this
Hagl.JPG
Hagl.JPG (10.82 KiB) Viewed 5474 times
by the way.

brgds,
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by minetymenace »

This was getting out of hand, self deprecation is OK, making jokes at the expense of others is not.

Posts deleted.

Please behave and understand that humour is tolerated, insults are not. You have been warned. <918
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Good evening gents,

I loosely fitted the B44 engine cases in the B50 frame to make a template for the rear engine plates. While doing that I noticed there is a gap between the engine mounting points and the frame lugs at the front and bottom:
Distance_1.JPG
Distance_2.JPG
On the B44 frame there is not this gap with the engine fitted.
The question is if the engine shall be up against the mounts on the right side or the left side?
The parts book indicate there are spacers/distance pieces between the frame and the engine on the right side:
Spacers.JPG
If this is correctly understood that the engine shall be hard against the mounts on the left side and the gaps on the right side shall be filled with spacers.
Can you confirm that please?

Thanks & brgds,
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by Momus »

Claus, get your drive chain alignment sorted as the priority then make engine position spacers as required.
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by SteveS »

Hi Claus

You don't know what damage the frame may have suffered over the years so best follow Momus's advice regarding chain alignment first and then sort out the spacers.

You may also have to remove the cross tube that links the footrest mounts so that the oil pipe union on the bottom of the motor has clearance. When I did mine I left short stubs on the end of the tube, welded a heavy duty washer on the cut end and then used a high tensile bolt to hold the footrest in position. This is actually a better arrangement than the original long bolt which tended to stretch over time. If I remember right I took the opportunity to drill out the footrest to accept a 7/16" bolt.
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B44Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Thanks Steve,
Yes I shall ensure proper chain alignment before I do the final engine installation in the frame. This was just a test fit to make a template for the rear
engine plates.
I agree you newer know what these old frames have been subjected to of abuse. I will make a dry build of the bike before I paint it to verify that everything fits and lines up properly.

Anyway, I'm still curious to hear where these distance pieces/spacers were intended to be fitted.

I'm not going to cut the cross tube for the foot rests. It will not be necessary as I have modified the oil pipe union to clear the frame tubes. It's a tight fit but will work. I will show that some time later.

Thanks,
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by minetymenace »

B44Claus wrote:It will not be necessary as I have modified the oil pipe union to clear the frame tubes. It's a tight fit but will work. I will show that some time later.
Please do :grin:
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by beesa71 »

There are three such spacers; one inside the rhs front engine mount, one inside lower the rhs engine mount and one outside the rhs engine mount between the plate and exhaust mounting ‘bracket’ (front pipe).

The 1971 parts book omits to show the front rhs front inner spacer.

The 1972 parts book (attached) shows all three spacers.

The three spacers shown fit all three locations and are 7/16” ID.

Regards to all and towards a, hopefully, better 2021.

Paul.
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by beesa71 »

Forgot: Claus, send me a PM with your full name and address and I’ll send you three if they are helpful to you.

Paul.
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Hi Paul,
Thanks for the clarification!
I will send PM.

Brgds,
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Please see below for the modified B44 oil pipe union:
IMG_1303.JPG
IMG_1335.JPG
IMG_1345.JPG
I took the pictures some years ago when I was building on a now abandoned MX project. They are also in an (very)older post.
The oil pipe union is brass and the original pipes can easily be removed by heating. To clear the frame tube for the foot rests the new oil pipes need to sit very close to the gearbox underside. At the same time the inlet pipe for the oil pump must make a 180 degr turn to point forward for connecting with the oil hose coming from the filter outlet at the down tube.
I'll modify it again by removing the take off for the top end oiling and move that further up in the oil return hose. That will simplify the whole assembly to have fewer soldered connections.
I must emphasize that I haven't run an engine with this arrangement so I can't say if it will work but I don't see why not. The only (and important) concern is if the soldered pipes will break from vibration <201 .

Brgds,
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Happy X-mas to you all!

New seat brackets welded in:
Bracket1.jpg
The right bracket will be shortened a bit to resemble the left.
I know, - I'm a bad welder but I'm good with an angle grinder :grin:
They appear to be solid but I will give them a spot of weld underneath to be sure.

Brgds,
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

I made the holes in the brackets oblong to allow for a bit of adjustment.

Can't say for certain that the holes are in the exact right position.
Bracket2.jpg
Bracket3.jpg
I suspect that the seat shall sit further forward but the front seat bracket I bought positions the seat with a gap to the petrol tank of approx. 2 cm. To move it further forward to close the gap I will have to modify the front bracket.

Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by gunnag »

I once fitted a B40GB engine into a B25 OIF frame and this is what I found I needed to do:-
- the frame was cleaned internally by using various combinations of hot soapy water, paraffin, paint thinners, engine degreaser, pressure washer etc. Each time I filed the frame it was vigorously shaken around, turned upside down etc. to ensure complete coverage, paying special attention to the top tube under the fuel tank which acts as a kind of settling pond. It took about 25 of these rinses to get rid of all the 'sparklies' and dirt.

- as bought the bike had a similar oil pipe feed arrangement using copper pipe, similar to what you have. I wasn't happy with this arrangements and the only practical solution was to chop out the pipe in between the footrest mounts which gave enough space to fit a standard B44 oil manifold. My understanding is that the pipe between the footrests doesn't add any strength so its not a problem if its removed and the lower engine mount when bolted up provides enough strength to this area anyway. You could try bending the thicker oil feed pipe on the manifold towards the front to allow easier connection with the frame outlet.


- I believe there is meant to be a shim fitted between the engine and lower frame mount to get the chain alignment right. Dont worry if there seems to be too much space between the frame and engine mounts, the frame will compress as the mountings are tightened and if you fit shims there shouldnt be too much slack.


- I dont know about the B44 engine but the B40 rear engine mount was much narrower and needed thick spacers machining.

- Regarding the side stand, you might want to check the lug on the frame, quite often these get bent as well as the frame tube. You might need to heat the frame tube cherry red and bend the lug back down so that the bike doesnt lean over too far.

Hope this helps.
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by Radman »

B44Claus wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:43 am Please see below for the modified B44 oil pipe union...I must emphasize that I haven't run an engine with this arrangement so I can't say if it will work but I don't see why not. The only (and important) concern is if the soldered pipes will break from vibration <201 "


I have been running a similar set-up for 2 seasons of MX on my B44 OIF MX build with no issues.
Rad
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very similar with different materials
very similar with different materials
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Thanks for the responses guys,
Not much progress on the project lately. I was going to get the frame and swinging arm blasted and powder coated but the guy I usually go to has temporarily closed his shop due to Covid-19.
I managed to find a rear light bracket and number plate brackets for sale here in DK. There seems to be more stuff up for sale now perhaps because people are at home and have time to spare and dig out their surplus parts.
The rear seat brackets I welded on earlier I have redone, their position were too far to the rear to fit the pattern seat I bought. Maybe it's the seat that's not right as with the front seat bracket fitted on the frame there was a 2-3 cm gap between the seat and the tank(2 gal steel). It was also too high up at the rear. These pattern seats have a glass fiber base and there is not an integral front seat bracket it has to be obtained separately. The shop where I got the seat didn't have the front bracket which I then got from another source. I can't say if it's the seat that's wrong or the bracket or perhaps both. Don't you just love pattern parts! After modifying the front bracket the seat now sits properly on the frame and attaches to the reworked rear brackets.

Regarding the oil pipe union I'm not going to cut any frame tubes to enable installation of the standard B44 item. I wish I had the skills of you Radman as your solution looks really neat.
Except from that I believe fitting the B44 engine in the B50 frame is quite straight forward:
Front engine mount: I will make some "top hat" washers to make up for the difference in bolt dimension B44-3/8" B50-7/16".
Under engine mount: Standard B50 3/8" bolt.
Rear engine mount: Special engine plates to compensate for the narrower B44 engine mount.

Thanks,
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Hello guys,
During the weekend I've been working on the front brake and fitting it in the forks. The brake I'm using is double sided tls off a S****i GT750J. It's a very wide brake that will not fit between the fork legs in a BSA B50.
Wheel1.JPG
The brake plate has a rather wide boss where the spindle is inserted and it can be slimmed down to make the whole brake narrower. To fit in the narrow BSA forks a lot of material would have to be removed from the brake plates and I feared they would become too weak. I found a set of late featherbed/early commando yokes with 7 3/8" between centers which doesn't require removing too much from the brake plates.
Fork1.JPG
The BSA fork stanchions are a fraction smaller than the Norton's but the lower yoke can be pinched to clamp the stanchions securely. The upper yoke taper is also a bit different to the BSA's but I will look into that later.
The standard front wheel spindle that came with the brake can not be clamped in the fork legs so I had a spindle fabricated by https://www.facebook.com/AstraxEngineering/
Ian makes some super quality stuff and he was happy to make a one-off spindle with nuts for me.
Spindle1.JPG
The spindle clamped nicely in the fork.
Spindle2.JPG
Draining the fork oil will require removal of the spindle <201
Spindle3.JPG
Approximately 11.5 mm needs to me removed from each brake plate
Brake plate1.JPG
Both brake plates after modification.
Brake plate2.JPG
The center of the brake plate is reinforced with a cast in steel boss which gives me some confidence that I haven't weakened it too much.
Brake plate3.JPG
Still lots to be done but now the wheel can be fitted in the forks.
Fork2.JPG
When you make such combinations of parts that were not initially meant to be assembled together, a lot of modifications are to be anticipated. BSA's steering head bearings cant be used as the steering head spindle diameter on the Norton fork yoke is too big and the Norton bearings will not fit in the BSA steering head. I will elaborate on this and the solution in a later post.

Thanks
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

I bought a B50/25 tank for the project late last year. Apart from a small dent/scratch at the top the tank is in good condition and doesn't leak:
tank1.jpg
Tank2.jpg
Tank3.jpg
It's a steel tank and I'm quite sure it's the 2 gallon version. There is only a welding seam at the rear of the tank and going by the parts book it shall not be covered by a chromed trim strip.
Tank4.JPG
Tank5.JPG
Apparently the trim strip is only fitted to the larger 3 gal tank. Similar with the chromed ring for the centre mounting. If I understand the parts book correctly the 2 gall steel tank should only have a centre mount covered by a rubber grommet and no chromed trim strip or ring?

By the way, I have checked that the fuel taps don't interfere with the rockerbox.


Thanks,
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by minetymenace »

I think you'll need 48, and it is chromed. Be careful with these, there are many for sale that are the triumph ones which have the bolt orthogonal to the top of the tank, I don't know about the smaller tanks, but I have the larger tank on my FS and the top of the tank is NOT at right angles to the bolt. There is a post about it somewhere on the forum....
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Thanks Gerry, I'll be careful to get the correct BSA version of the chromed ring/trim strip holder if I order one.

Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Hi guys,

A little progress on the my B44/B50 Hybrid project, the frame and swing arm is back from powder coating:
Framecoat2.JPG
And I could fit the steering head bearings:
Taper roller5.JPG
Two distance rings are required under the bearings

I couldn't find taper rollers that would fit the 25 mm steering stem on the Norton yokes with the B50 steering head seat of 1.7805" so I had to get the outer ring on a set of SKF 32005 X/Q ground to size. That cost more than the bearings...
Taper roller7.JPG
With the rollers fitted:
Taper roller6.JPG
and the Norton yokes installed:
Norton yokes3.JPG
No modifications were required to the yokes the stem length was spot on.
Norton yokes4.JPG
Regards,
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by baz »

B44Claus wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:50 pm Hi guys,

A little progress on the my B44/B50 Hybrid project, the frame and swing arm is back from powder coating:
Framecoat2.JPG
And I could fit the steering head bearings:
Taper roller5.JPG
Two distance rings are required under the bearings

I couldn't find taper rollers that would fit the 25 mm steering stem on the Norton yokes with the B50 steering head seat of 1.7805" so I had to get the outer ring on a set of SKF 32005 X/Q ground to size. That cost more than the bearings...
Taper roller7.JPG
With the rollers fitted:
Taper roller6.JPG
and the Norton yokes installed:
Norton yokes3.JPG
No modifications were required to the yokes the stem length was spot on.
Norton yokes4.JPG

Regards,
Claus
Looking really good , not sure what difference it'll make but aren't the oif yokes raked and the Norton ones parallel?
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

Thanks Baz,

The Norton featherbed/early Commando yokes are definitely parallel. I don't have a set of BSA/Triumph OIF fork yokes, so I can't say if they are either or, but I would be a little surprised if they were not parallel also. I'm sure some other members will now and perhaps comment here.

Thanks,
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by SteveS »

.
Had a good look at a pair of B25/B50 yokes (triple trees) but it is very difficult to determine if there is a difference in offset between the top & bottom yokes. There may be a small difference which may explain why the frame drawings show a rake of 27° and when people measure the actual bike with forks fitted the figure comes out at 30-31°

Found a couple of threads that didn't conclusively help confirm or deny my observations:

Upper Triple Clamps

Front-end geometry for MX

Anyone know for definite?
Steve Sewell
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by baz »

For some reason I always thought the b25/50 yokes were raked, maybe my memory is not as good as I thought
I don't have any to measure ,
Apologies for any confusion caused
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

No problem at all Baz!

If the front wheel hits the downtube during compression I will know I need to look for another pair of yokes :lol:

Thanks
Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by B44Claus »

I test fitted the wheels to check the alignment before final adjustment/tightening of the spokes:
Frame w wheels.JPG
The rear mudguard came with the frame when I bought it but it has a nasty split at the rear end probably from vibration and running without the support rail/rear loop:
Frame w wheels2.JPG
A pity as the chrome is not too bad and would have polished up ok I guess. Now I will get it welded and painted instead of buying a new mudguard.

Claus
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Re: B50/44 Hybrid

Post by kommando »

It's the 850 Commando yokes that are raked, they have ANG cast underneath for identification.
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